Supercharging availability?

[jeffro01]

I've said it before and I'll continue to keep saying it... "If you can't charge at home, don't buy the car"... I, for one, do not welcome with open arms those who willingly clog up SC space because they are unable, or worse, unwilling to charge at home.

I too have experienced SC congestion which made for a less than optimal traveling experience and something has got to give before the Model 3 comes out as it's only getting worse in CA, not better. The worse thing about SC congestion is your stuck waiting, can't go down the block to the next SC, you're just stuck waiting...

I've argued with locals hogging spots before and I'll continue to do so as I come across them. If there are open spots, I don't care but if the SC is full (or full with cars waiting) a local should go home and charge their car where they should be...

Jeff

 

[Boatguy]

The trick is how to restrict it to 'occasionally'. Maybe you get 15 'e-coupons' per year for your home supercharger, unlimited on other superchargers?

Restricting access, metering out a fixed amount per year for emergencies such as you describe, etc. it not difficult to manage. All the data is available to Tesla, it's some relatively modest software to look at your home, look at your SC location, review the history, look at your "emergency" balance etc.

I don't think it's implementation that holding Tesla back, it's the development of policy statement that doesn't alienate buyers. Right now they're letting everyone believe their own narrative so most everyone is happy (excluding the OP and anyone else who's ever waited for a slot at an SC). When they finally put a stake in the ground, some will be happy, others not so much, and this discussion will be moot.

 

[Az_Rael]

And they cannot change contract terms on existing owners. Retroactive contract mods - not legal.

Does it actually spell out supercharger conditions in the actual purchase contract? I thought it wasn't spelled out in any contracts. What exactly does it say if you don't mind sharing?

 

[ApauloThirteen]

Does it actually spell out supercharger conditions in the actual purchase contract? I thought it wasn't spelled out in any contracts. What exactly does it say if you don't mind sharing?

Hi,

I found a few purchase agreements online. Believe Tesla likes to keep legal jargon/boilerplate to a min. Fair enough.

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default...20120925_model_x_purchase_agreement_us_ma.pdf

https://www.tesla.com/order/download-order-agreement?country=US



Owners, please chime in if your contracts mention supercharging.


If it came down to who said what when, you'd be able to cite the date of the Tesla website language and your purchase date. Any lawyer would agree that you'd have a strong argument (if not a clear cut case) there was reliance on the Tesla statements about supercharging, when you purchased your car.

"...Superchargers are free connectors that charge Model S and Model X in minutes instead of hours. .... All new Model S and Model X come standard with Supercharger technology." From the Tesla website.

 

[Canuck]

Does it actually spell out supercharger conditions in the actual purchase contract? I thought it wasn't spelled out in any contracts. What exactly does it say if you don't mind sharing?

Configure a Model S or Model X and read what it says under "Standard Equipment" then "Technology" as follows:

"Free long distance travel on Tesla's expanding supercharger network."

Order your Tesla Model S | Tesla

Well any limits better occur soon, b/c the current contracts / website says unlimited, free. Until they write that in the contract, they can send out as many 'tsk tsk' letters as they want to locals who might be overusing the SCs in their area.

And they cannot change contract terms on existing owners. Retroactive contract mods - not legal.

Source please?! I've heard this so many times here but never can anyone direct me to a source -- and a verbal "Tesla told me" won't suffice as a result of the parol evidence rule.

If it came down to who said what when, you'd be able to cite the date of the Tesla website language and your purchase date. Any lawyer would agree that you'd have a strong argument (if not a clear cut case) there was reliance on the Tesla statements about supercharging, when you purchased your car.

"...Superchargers are free connectors that charge Model S and Model X in minutes instead of hours. .... All new Model S and Model X come standard with Supercharger technology." From the Tesla website.

Nice editing out the important part. Here's the full quote:

"Superchargers are free connectors that charge Model S and Model X in minutes instead of hours. Stations are strategically placed to minimize stops during long distance travel and are conveniently located near restaurants, shopping centers, and WiFi hot spots. Each station contains multiple Superchargers to help you get back on the road quickly."

I ordered in 2013 and have followed this issue and wording ever since and never once has Tesla deviated from using "free long distance travel" with its "supercharger" language. But I'm all ears for someone to prove me wrong.

 

[ApauloThirteen]

Configure a Model S or Model X and read what it says under "Standard Equipment" then "Technology" as follows:

"Free long distance travel on Tesla's expanding supercharger network."

Order your Tesla Model S | Tesla



Source please?! I've heard this so many times here but never can anyone direct me to a source -- and a verbal "Tesla told me" won't suffice as a result of the parol evidence rule.

But good luck with your lawsuit...




Nice editing out the important part. Here's the full quote:

"Superchargers are free connectors that charge Model S and Model X in minutes instead of hours. Stations are strategically placed to minimize stops during long distance travel and are conveniently located near restaurants, shopping centers, and WiFi hot spots. Each station contains multiple Superchargers to help you get back on the road quickly."

But good luck to you to with suing Tesla...

Good point re: "long distance travel."

BTW, just discussing terms, not any actions/activities. In the non legal/contract sense, I doubt Musk would shut off local SCing for existing owners. If they wanted to limit, they'd have to do it formally for future buyers.

 

[Canuck]

BTW, just discussing terms, not any actions/activities.

Yes, I know. I was just having fun with you probably because it always irks me when people suggest things are not legal and perhaps I interpret that as using litigation to get one's way. In any event, I edited my post to remove my snarkiness.

 

[TaoJones]

In retrospect, I find it laughable, and a bit sad, despite

1) Elon's own quoted material in support of density as well as distance for SC deployment (see above in this very thread), not to mention

2) the *fact* that non-garaged owners have been told by Tesla folk that it is (of course) perfectly fine to use SCs for local charging unless and until charging becomes a possibility at home or at work,

that a small, misguided but vocal minority continues to advocate both the persecution of local non-garaged owners and the promulgation of adding friction (poo-poo schemes) to the best and only frictionless high speed charging network on the planet.

Y'all can hide behind evidentiary constructs and demands for sources and other laziness all you want - doesn't change the fact that Tesla has and will continue to commit to both density (hello, non-garaged) and distance in the continued SC rollout.

Don't like the message? Too bad. Get out more; visit 100 SCs and see how often you have to wait. This of course would require that you actually own a Tesla in the first place, and use SCs. Most Tesla owners do not use SCs with any frequency. But don't let that stop a good witch hunt or crafting of a solution in search of a problem.

When 97% of the network is underutilized and this much handwringing is done over a 3% target that itself is also fine most of the time, the motivation is as obvious as it is exclusionary. As such, this vocal but misguided minority is, in my view, an embarrassment inasmuch as it continues to advocate for a position that is completely contrary to Tesla's mission.

That's okay. It only took a trip to the Supreme Court to expose another group who tried all kinds of things to suppress voting under the guise of "protecting us from voter fraud". Only thing was, there weren't any significant cases of voter fraud - just a bunch of people trying to vote in the first place. Beware exclusionary rhetoric, folks. And don't bet against a company that has had and will continue to have noooooo trouble with capacity and demand management for its superchargers.

Despite the few naysayers and armchair warriors, all will continue to be well. Without poo-poo, and without exclusionary rhetoric.

 

[ApauloThirteen]

Yes, I know. I was just having fun with you probably because it always irks me when people suggest things are not legal and perhaps I interpret that as using litigation to get one's way. In any event, I edited my post to remove my snarkiness.

No worries, appreciate the responses. I might've been a bit too hasty (& wrong) on the long dist travel thing.

There's two levels (I believe) that companies operate in. One is the pure legal/contract level and the other is goodwill/cust satisfaction/good business practices level. With Tesla, I believe both would align so if they really want to cut off local SCing, they'd call that out for all future buyers and put explicit language setting expectations on their websites and contracts. But, I would guess they'd just concentrate on building out more superchargers and selling more cars, rather than resort to try to write rules against 'local' charging.

 

[Canuck]

This of course would require that you actually own a Tesla in the first place, and use SCs. Most Tesla owners do not use SCs with any frequency. But don't let that stop a good witch hunt or crafting of a solution in search of a problem.

It always makes me cringe when people preface their comments with words to the effect of "This of course would require that you actually own a Tesla". In any event, I own one, probably longer than you (2.5 years), and I use Superchargers practically every weekend to and from my cabin. I bet I have used superchargers, for long distance travel only, far more than you.

Do I qualify to provide an opinion under your criteria?

Beware exclusionary rhetoric, folks.

Good advice. Anyone, Tesla owner or not, are welcome to comment on this issue.

... this vocal but misguided minority is, in my view, an embarrassment inasmuch as it continues to advocate for a position that is completely contrary to Tesla's mission.

So you must place Elon Musk in this misguided minority because he said:

“There are a few people who are quite aggressively using it for local Supercharging, We’ll sort of send them just a reminder note that it’s cool to do it occasionally, but that it’s meant to be a long-distance thing”

Tesla Letter To Rein In Local Supercharger Use Goes Wrong

Oh, and you can read here's what Musk and J.B Straubel said about why supercharging will not be free for the Model 3:

Elon Musk On Why Supercharging Won't Be Free For Model 3

So I guess Musk and Straubel need a lesson in advocating for Tesla's mission since they are acting contrary to its mission, according to you. Right?

 

[msnow]

In retrospect, I find it laughable, and a bit sad, despite

1) Elon's own quoted material in support of density as well as distance for SC deployment (see above in this very thread), not to mention

2) the *fact* that non-garaged owners have been told by Tesla folk that it is (of course) perfectly fine to use SCs for local charging unless and until charging becomes a possibility at home or at work,

that a small, misguided but vocal minority continues to advocate both the persecution of local non-garaged owners and the promulgation of adding friction (poo-poo schemes) to the best and only frictionless high speed charging network on the planet.

Y'all can hide behind evidentiary constructs and demands for sources and other laziness all you want - doesn't change the fact that Tesla has and will continue to commit to both density (hello, non-garaged) and distance in the continued SC rollout.

Don't like the message? Too bad. Get out more; visit 100 SCs and see how often you have to wait. This of course would require that you actually own a Tesla in the first place, and use SCs. Most Tesla owners do not use SCs with any frequency. But don't let that stop a good witch hunt or crafting of a solution in search of a problem.

When 97% of the network is underutilized and this much handwringing is done over a 3% target that itself is also fine most of the time, the motivation is as obvious as it is exclusionary. As such, this vocal but misguided minority is, in my view, an embarrassment inasmuch as it continues to advocate for a position that is completely contrary to Tesla's mission.

That's okay. It only took a trip to the Supreme Court to expose another group who tried all kinds of things to suppress voting under the guise of "protecting us from voter fraud". Only thing was, there weren't any significant cases of voter fraud - just a bunch of people trying to vote in the first place. Beware exclusionary rhetoric, folks. And don't bet against a company that has had and will continue to have noooooo trouble with capacity and demand management for its superchargers.

Despite the few naysayers and armchair warriors, all will continue to be well. Without poo-poo, and without exclusionary rhetoric.

Not wanting to address each and every point of your novella (much of which makes sense so don't take it as an insult) and only focusing on the OP's topic, are you saying that because 97% of the existing SC network is underutilized that we don't need more to accommodate the portion of the half a million per year new cars who choose to have SpC access? If so that would be contrary to what Elon has said after the M3 reveal. Secondly and again not looking for a long detailed answer, if the network is so underutilized why are so many of us finding the SpC's we hit at capacity? Could it be there's a problem on where strategically they have been placed?

 

[Canuck]

...only focusing on the OP's topic, are you saying that because 97% of the existing SC network is underutilized that we don't need more to accommodate the portion of the half a million per year new cars who choose to have SpC access? If so that would be contrary to what Elon has said after the M3 reveal. Secondly and again not looking for a long detailed answer, if the network is so underutilized why are so many of us finding the SpC's we hit at capacity? Could it be there's a problem on where strategically they have been placed?

You hit the nail on the head. This is all about proper planning for the future. The worst thing for Tesla's mission would be to provide free supercharging to locals, all Model 3 owners, and then years down the road have long and congested lineups, and be the laughing stock of the ICE world. That's what Musk and Straubel understand and why they want to nip this potential future problem in the bud, some of which is now rearing its ugly head, as per the OP's post.

 

[Az_Rael]

You hit the nail on the head. This is all about proper planning for the future. The worst thing for Tesla's mission would be to provide free supercharging to locals, all Model 3 owners, and then years down the road have long and congested lineups, and be the laughing stock of the ICE world. That's what Musk and Straubel understand and why they want to nip this potential future problem in the bud, some of which is now rearing its ugly head, as per the OP's post.

I hope that we finally see some supercharger access terms and conditions with the new Model 3 "packages" (whatever they may be). If I am going to pay for a supercharger package, I sure want to know what exactly I am getting. Tesla sometimes plays fast and loose with stuff like this and I would hate to find out two years down the road that the rules have now changed and what I thought I was getting when buying the car turns out to not be true anymore. (See the ranger fee debacle for example: Change of Policy on Tesla Ranger Service )

Hopefully those terms might address taxi services, parking and not charging, etc, etc. It would certainly give Tesla a means of enforcement for those they determine are abusing the system.

 

[TexasEV]

I think it all comes down to the difference between someone who can not charge at home and someone who doesn't want to charge at home.

 

[AndreSF]

I think it all comes down to the difference between someone who can not charge at home and someone who doesn't want to charge at home.

There are still options IMO for someone without home charging, such as work place charging (we have a very nice setup at work with 8 EVSEs available in the garage), FastDC charging with CHAdeMO adapter, but those will likely not be free like included SpC access.
Tesla is doing quite a great job promoting/executing destination charging program, perhaps they need to look for ways to get into business buildings more.
I think (not based on any real stats) this specific SpC in question (San Mateo) is just located in area more conducive to local charging. Similar to Mountain View location as well.

 

[Boatguy]

If I am going to pay for a supercharger package, I sure want to know what exactly I am getting. Tesla sometimes plays fast and loose with stuff like this and I would hate to find out two years down the road that the rules have now changed and what I thought I was getting when buying the car turns out to not be true anymore.

Spot on! Tesla has and is playing "fast and loose", letting everyone believe what they would like to believe, rather than setting and implementing a clear SC policy. We all realize that today SC congestion is more of an annoyance than a real problem for 95% of owners. But the existing, and even extrapolated SC capacity based on supercharge.info permits/construction will not accommodate a tripling of the number of potential users in the next two years.

The SC network is Tesla's most strategic competitive advantage over all other car mfgs; it should not be squandered. The 200mi+ Bolt, the 120mi i3, the 200+ Leaf, etc, etc, can't be driven across country, or even from Detroit to California; there is no national fast charge network for them. And none of those mfgs are building one, they are waiting for others to do it (an odd twist on the usual benefit of open standards).

We (Tesla owners) need a solution for long distance travel, and we need a solution for owners who cannot (and the few who will not) charge at home. We're directing a lot of critical thinking and energy towards each other that could, and should, be directed at Tesla demanding a clear SC charging policy statement and implementation plan.

Let's not dig too deep a hole for ourselves exploring this issue while waiting for Tesla.

 

[callmesam]

I believe Tesla doesn't even know if crowded Superchargers will become an issue as they continue to pump out more and more vehicles.
However, Tesla obviously feels crowded Superchargers *could* become an issue if they are not making supercharging free for every Model 3 owner, but rather an option. I also believe the letter proves that they have concerns.

1. Tesla "doesn't know if crowded Superchargers will be an issue."

2. Tesla "feels Superchargers *could* be an issue."

3. Tesla definitely "does have concerns."

You seem to have all the bases covered.

On #1 there is data that Tesla knows exactly what's going on.

I don't think there is any evidence that a Supercharging fee with Model 3 has any bearing on crowding. Maybe you could explain how you got from A to B?

 

[ohmman]

I'm so glad there's another Supercharging congestion thread. The other ones didn't really vet out the details, so it's good to be able to revisit. Also, it's good that it's all new participants coming into it without preconceived strong opinions on the matter.

Let me summarize the other threads, and maybe cut this one short. You're wrong and so are you. There is no congestion, except that there is. Tesla will fix it, but there's no way they can. And a few condescending acronym abbreviations added in here, there, and over there.

Text formatting added for users who have not yet chimed in (you can thank me later for saving you the trouble.)

 

[callmesam]

I've said it before and I'll continue to keep saying it... "If you can't charge at home, don't buy the car"... I, for one, do not welcome with open arms those who willingly clog up SC space because they are unable, or worse, unwilling to charge at home.

I too have experienced SC congestion which made for a less than optimal traveling experience and something has got to give before the Model 3 comes out as it's only getting worse in CA, not better. The worse thing about SC congestion is your stuck waiting, can't go down the block to the next SC, you're just stuck waiting...

I've argued with locals hogging spots before and I'll continue to do so as I come across them. If there are open spots, I don't care but if the SC is full (or full with cars waiting) a local should go home and charge their car where they should be...

Jeff

I'm sticking with Elon Musk on this one. Locals are welcome to charge at Superchargers if they don't have charging at home. As others have tried to explain, there is no reason to pull up the welcome mat on newcomers.

The price of the option (Supercharging) for the Model 3 will provide ample funding for density to the Supercharger Network.

Tesla can't change the world by aiming low. They are replacing an entire fueling infrastructure. SolarCity/Powerwall/Powerpack/HPWC/Supercharger/Silveo

We need big change to overcome the horrors we are inflicting on our world and Tesla sells "Free for Life" and claims it doesn't cost them much for the juice. That's powerful and it's a common cause. We can take collective actions as owners.

But not by creating an us vs. them mentality. If an owner wants to take the plunge and is willing to make the effort, we should be encouraging.

Tesla seems to think so:

"I park my car on the street and have no regular place to plug in the car. This is very much like having a cell phone that you can only charge at the office or in coffee shops — kind of weird, takes a little bit of planning, but it can work. The car is so much fun that dealing with it is actually fun. The city is a tough environment."​

Owning a Tesla in Brooklyn

 

[Rocky_H]

Secondly and again not looking for a long detailed answer, if the network is so underutilized why are so many of us finding the SpC's we hit at capacity?

Good, because I have a not long detailed answer. See that area under your profile where it says "Location: SoCal"?
Here's the answer: Because the vast majority of the networks is...outside of SoCal.
Really, they sit empty most of the time in most of the country. There are a few that really do have a crowding problem right now, but that is just a few. It just happens to be where you live, so you see it often. And the people you know live there too and see it often. And the people they talk with live there too, so when they tell you about their friends' experiences, it's STILL those same few Superchargers that all of you are talking about.