Supercharging by Locals/Overcrowded Superchargers in So Cal

[TaoJones]

I can't wait to hear the discourse if/when non-tesla EV's are allowed in the network. Then, add a few hundred thousand 3's that may not have the same disposable income for at home chargers and the wait time swells.

The threads will be epic.

Agreed re the threads but not re the Model 3. The peremptory handwringing and exclusionist rhetoric is already a sad testament.

So about the Model 3. Not gonna be hundreds of thousands, especially in California, for about a half-decade. "Oh, but 500,000/year! 500,000/year, the fearful cry!"

So about *that*:

1. Won't ramp to 500,000 until (end of) 2019 at the earliest.

2. Half production destined for not the US.

3. Of the other half, 40% destined for California. So that's 100,000 cars. At most, at best.

So it will be easily 2020-2021 before hundreds of thousands of Model 3 become California cars. Meanwhile, the other 49 states will have no problem absorbing the other 150,000 cars/year, relatively speaking.

Meanwhile a second time, 12,000+ chargers will be installed in California just from 2 utility companies (and clearly there will be thousands more to come), and multi-family housing will have an opportunity to enjoy a competitive advantage (read that, charge higher rent) by offering EV charging.

And the list goes on. An AeroVironment clone if not AV themselves will bring ChaDeMos that actually work and are full strength. Today they charge $19.95/30 days of unlimited use for ChaDeMo in Oregon - that's as close to free as it gets. And they have no problem installing at gas stations or anywhere else. The gas station owner with whom I spoke in Oregon loved having a ChaDeMo there as he saw an increase in quickmart sales post-install.

All will be well. They said Costco gas stations could never work either, and those turned out just fine. People wait 20 minutes at those all the time to get to a pump. I'm often done before they are, which is rather amusing and something I have been known to mention to an ICE-driving friend. She waits in line at the Costco after work like I used to, and across the street I charge and have a spinach salad or get work done while I wait. Life is so unfair.

 

[TaoJones]

Based on my few data points, I think it is you who is off the mark. I live in the Bay Area but visit SoCal a couple of times a year in my Model S. Here are 2 examples of the problem:

1) Charging in SJC to go to Temecula. Guy next to me in a 60 was bragging that he lives 5 miles away, has charging at home, but uses the SJC Supercharger. All of the stalls were full and people were waiting.

2) Driving from Palm Springs to Silicon Valley (475 miles). First charge was in Burbank. 6 stall fulls, 3 cars waiting. Woman in front of my was a local who was "charging while doing some shopping".

That is the problem, not people who drive 200+ miles per day in the LA Basin and need to supercharge. Tesla needs to fix this. And it is no different in NorCal (Gilroy, Mtn View, San Mateo, Fremont) where locals are delaying long distance travelers. Just not as congested as SoCal.

Yep. As noted, garaged locals should use their garage.

However, SJC suffers from being the *only* SC north of San Diego when in fact they should have put one in North County already to halve the strain or more.

And when you put SCs in malls, you get the conflict of interest already discussed.

But again - Tesla has committed to DENSITY as well as to DISTANCE.

User education, once again as already stated, is an opportunity not completely leveraged yet by Tesla.

 

[Canuck]

Let's be very clear about this latest incarnation of the usual witch hunt for locals, as it is mostly misguided and off the mark. Again.

Funny that people posting real life examples constantly get labelled as witch hunters by you. I can understand a few witch hunters may serve to prove your point, but with more and more witch hunters out there posting real life examples, maybe, as Henry Kissinger said: "Even a paranoid can have enemies"?

Perhaps you should stop with the witch hunt language and understand that locals are preventing people from charging today and, unless Tesla gets a handle on it soon, it will be much worse tomorrow? Just a thought.

Fortunately, Tesla understands that it's not a witch hunt at all...

How Tesla's pay per use 'Supercharger Credits' may work after all

 

[Canuck]

If you can't\won't charge at home, don't buy the car.

Total elitist, short sighted, close minded BS.

So I go through the process and expense of putting an outlet in my garage to charge at home, but my neighbour decides to save money by not doing so, and instead charges at the local supercharger, and that makes me an elitist to call out my neighbour?

I think you need to look up the definition of "elitist" since it applies to the guy using the local supercharger, and not at all to the guy who doesn't feel entitled, and so takes it upon himself to charge at home. It's the local supercharger users that are also short-sighted and closed minded, at least in my view.

 

[bxr140]

So I go through the process and expense of putting an outlet in my garage to charge at home, but my neighbour decides to save money by not doing so, and instead charges at the local supercharger, and that makes me an elitist to call out my neighbour?.

I'm not talking about locals that won't charge at home, I'm talking about locals that can't charge at home. Jeffro knows that; he's modified his argument to include the cya of 'won't' in an attempt to confuse readers like yourself who don't understand the history.

Make no mistake, his argument is that anyone who doesn't have access to home charging (apartment dwellers, etc) should not buy a tesla, period. His only reasoning is that he doesn't want to have to wait for a supercharger stall to open up once in a blue moon. That is a selfish, elitist, and wholly counterproductive POV for the future of EVs, teslas included. The only support he gives for his argument is 'well, I got mine Jack, so **** you'. It's a bit like arguing with an trump supporter...but if you don't call out vile, hateful, and divisive rhetoric you might as well be spouting it yourself...

 

[ecarfan]

Moderator here: just want to request that everyone stay courteous as per TMC rules. This topic of whether or not locals charging is a terrible problem at some busy California Superchargers or is not a significant issue has been discussed many times on TMC in multiple threads over the past year. Anyone is welcome to state their position on the issue but leave the personal attacks and snide remarks out of it or your posts will be moved to the Snippiness thread. Thank you.

 

[TaoJones]

I wonder if the DENSITY part won't be more destination chargers, not superchargers. A pilot program in the UK: Tesla is testing a new charging solution for people living in apartments

'And' would be preferable to 'either or'. Iirc, a similar effort may be underway in Hong Kong and/or NYC as well (parking garages for the latter at least).

One of the downsides of not having an advertising budget is that the majority of landlords are unaware that HPWCs are often available for free. Near the beach hereabouts, 2BR rentals go for $3000+/month and, believe it or not, landlords still compete for the best tenants. For those properties fortunate enough to have any kind of off-street parking, HPWC installation would certainly constitute a differentiator.

 

[Blu Zap]

@ecarfan
Thanks for quelling the craziness here.

@bxr140, you are right on. Thanks.

I would be ticked if I saw an owner plug in at a Supercharger then get in another car and drive away. But please do not pull me into that category.

I spent $1200 for the HPWC when I purchased my MS two years ago. All good, charged overnight and only used SCs on long trips. Then my landlord sold the house. That HPWC is now in a box in storage. I am now in an apartment that has no provision for charging in the parking area. I drive to business meetings a few days a week, 120 mile round trip. Occasionally I drive to a company office 20 miles away. Yes, I supercharge on those trips. That is my only choice.

I have noticed that we now have Tesla provided concierges at a couple of the busy Superchargers. They are very efficient in managing the cue. Especially, they ask how long do you expect to be charging. No hopping in another car and leaving your Tesla for a few hours! Glad to see it. I have not waited more than 10 minutes at a busy SC so far. These guys also educate the owners about how chargers are paired up and that they will get a better charge with using a charger with an unoccupied mate. Amazing how so many Tesla owners don't even know about that.

So, best intentions with home charging have left me to depend on SCs. I have paid the money for home charging. But life takes different directions.

 

[TaoJones]

I'm not talking about locals that won't charge at home, I'm talking about locals that can't charge at home. Jeffro knows that; he's modified his argument to include the cya of 'won't' in an attempt to confuse readers like yourself who don't understand the history.

Make no mistake, his argument is that anyone who doesn't have access to home charging (apartment dwellers, etc) should not buy a tesla, period. His only reasoning is that he doesn't want to have to wait for a supercharger stall to open up once in a blue moon. That is a selfish, elitist, and wholly counterproductive POV for the future of EVs, teslas included. The only support he gives for his argument is 'well, I got mine Jack, so **** you'. It's a bit like arguing with an trump supporter...but if you don't call out vile, hateful, and divisive rhetoric you might as well be spouting it yourself...

Amen.

I find this kind of exclusionary, elitist rhetoric to be exactly contrary to Tesla's mission, which is, in part, to advance EV adoption.

It also attempts to subjugate, or at least to subordinate the non-garaged. Not only is that misguided, but it is bigoted and, frankly, ignorant of (sub)urban demographics in SoCal.

The only thing worse is subsequently defending that bigotry - either through silence or through acquiescence.

A little education goes a long way. I'd be willing to bet that there are people at Tesla who have forgotten more about capacity management than most of us know in the first place.

It was none other than Straubel himself who said that the free SC model would work fine up to about a million cars. And would you look at that... by the million car mark (presumably domestically but he may have meant globally), it's entirely possible that the Model 3 platform will have eclipsed the S/X (with a few of each still produced a la the BMW 700 series) and prepaid SC usage becomes the rule rather than the exception.

It is also possible that in 5-10 years there will be faster charging available along with even larger batteries necessitating fewer top-offs, but that would just be more crazy talk.

Have a little faith, yo.

 

[ohmman]

I think the pay per use (poo-poo?) plan that Tesla appears to be implementing, along with idle charges, is going to at a minimum, put a dent in the potential for future over/mis-use of the system. But I do agree that Tesla will be (and currently is) committed to density. The two of those together will not eliminate waiting during certain periods, but will help a lot.

For a couple/few years, owners are going to have to do their best to schedule around peak times. It's not always possible, I realize. But when it is, it'll pay off. I mean, don't we all do our best to avoid rush hour when driving, or scheduling flights, etc? It's not much different. 2+ hours of traffic from SFO to my house if I schedule poorly, and 1:15 if I don't. I do my best to avoid the slower commute.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I think the pay per use (poo-poo?) plan that Tesla appears to be implementing, along with idle charges, is going to at a minimum, put a dent in the potential for future over/mis-use of the system. But I do agree that Tesla will (and is) committed to density. The two of those together will not eliminate waiting during certain periods, but will help a lot.

For a couple/few years, owners are going to have to do their best to schedule around peak times. It's not always possible, I realize. But when it is, it'll pay off. I mean, don't we all do our best to avoid rush hour when driving, or scheduling flights, etc? It's not much difference. 2+ hours of traffic from SFO to my house if I schedule poorly, and 1:15 if I don't. It's not really any different.

Where did the idle charges rumor come from? I'm not seeing it on Electrek and that's typically the number 1 site for "leaks".

A week or so ago there was lots of discussions regarding Supercharger credits, but I didn't see any idle charges in what spurred the conversation.

Tesla to introduce new ‘Supercharger Credit’ system to reduce entry price of Model S & X

Personally I'd prefer upgrades to the website to tell us the average availability over a certain time frame. I think that would help at least me when traveling.

 

[Ulmo]

Tesla has added a "leave the stall" message that is pushed 5 minutes after charging is done.

I'd like to see that fine-tuned to 2 minutes before charging is done, and another when charging is done. Those extra five minutes add up in cascaded situations. Hopefully, the chargers don't need to cool down between cars, but if they do, then ignore my suggestion ...

 

[ohmman]

Where did the idle charges rumor come from? I'm not seeing it on Electrek and that's typically the number 1 site for "leaks".

This post linked to the idle fee text.

 

[Canuck]

I think the pay per use (poo-poo?) plan that Tesla appears to be implementing, along with idle charges, is going to at a minimum, put a dent in the potential for future over/mis-use of the system

That's heresy! There is no problem, not today, tomorrow, or one million cars from today! You may look like a neanderthal, but I see the witch inside of you!

And for those who suggest that some of us here are elitist who are trying to keep people who truly can't charge other ways from charging at superchargers, please give us a break. Maybe a very few feel that way but I doubt it's very many. Of course, those people without home or work, or other ways to charge, are welcome to charge locally, but they're not the problem. Turning a blind eye to those who can, but prefer not to charge at home, and using charged language like "elitist", "short sighted" and "closed minded" when people call them out, is not advancing the EV movement, it's hurting it, at least in my opinion.

In any event, none of this really matters because regardless of what we post here, a certain portion of the population will abuse the system. Just try leaving a bowl of candy out on Halloween with a note to "please only take one". Most people will only take one, but it only takes one person to ruin it for everyone else. Same with this system. It only take a few to ruin it for the many. We are brought down by the lowest common denominator in most aspects of our society. Tesla understands this and knows its current system is doomed for failure, so calling us witches and elitists makes no difference. This system has to be changed or it will implode. And Tesla is changing it, so end of story.

But really, it's a sad ending. Necessary, but still sad.

 

[ohmman]

In any event, none of this really matters because regardless of what we post here, a certain portion of the population will abuse the system. Just try leaving a bowl of candy out on Halloween with a note to "please only take one".

Off-topic, but I did this once while I readied my then-toddler son for bed. Shortly after I closed the door, I heard a loud clatter, incessant giggling, and a scuffling of feet. I opened the door to find that they took the bowl and all. My folding table was knocked over. I packed it in for the night and felt a little sad but also chuckled at my stupidity.

 

[Canuck]

 

[Troy]

Where did the idle charges rumor come from?

I was mentioned on Tesla website. In THIS screenshot there is a big button that says "$0". Under that button, it says idle fees.

 

[bxr140]

Of course, those people without home or work, or other ways to charge, are welcome to charge locally, but they're not the problem.

That's EXACTLY the WHOLE point. As I've said before, there are a SMALL number of current tesla owners who can't charge at home or work. The number is so small and those owners are typically so very conscious of their situation that they are simply not part of the problem.

As I've said before, the local supercharging 'problem' is the people who can but don't charge at home. To go one step further, the real 'problem' is the chronic local chargers. It is absolutely not the occasional local chargers, as that practice is totally within the bounds of any reasonable person's guidelines for supercharger use. Its not even the noobs who don't know any better yet and think its fun to supercharge and save a few bucks--I can't be too down on their shiney-new-toy enthusiasm. Good for them on buying a Tesla.

Turning a blind eye to those who can, but prefer not to charge at home, and using charged language like "elitist", "short sighted" and "closed minded" when people call them out, is not advancing the EV movement, it's hurting it, at least in my opinion.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not hip to the history on this subject. To be crystal clear, the person you're defending [by targeting me] is 100% against tesla ownership for those who can't charge at home. Period. He does not think they should buy teslas. He is 100% against the people you specifically identify as "not the problem".

As I'm sure you'll agree, that mentality is counterproductive to the advancement of the EV movement.

 

[smilepak]

I have had numerous time going out and buy a stack of business side car with a label saying to the effect Dont Be A Dick

Just to place it on cars who abuse charging spot like ICE parking in it or taking a spot beyond charging time required.

Lol

 

[smilepak]

Wouldn't this be an easy solution to solve if Tesla really want to solve it. I mean they can have free charging. THey have the technology to know if the car is actively charging and plugged in. They know you are at their Supercharging location.

Couldn't they easily put something together that say if you are plugged in and you are fully charged for longer than 15 minutes, you will be charged $"x" for every increment of time just for parking there....