Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving Notes

[callmesam]

^ love the analogy!

Its not free. I paid $2000 for access.

This is analogy is a failure.

It didn't come included with my car and I didn't agree to ANY limitations. Nor we're any offered when I placed my order or picked up my car.

I've asked before, but what about taxis?

Do they have "need" or are they freeloaders?

This "policy" is already a failure as it creates uncertainty for owners who are marginal cases.

Free, forever was much simpler.

 

[scaesare]

I think Tesla, in a way, contradicted themselves. The SC's were supposed to be for long distance travel, but then they built the network out, in large part, for local charging.

"In large part"?

There are a few SC's within metropolitan centers, ostensibly to address the subsequent need for condo dwellers and the like, but the vast majority remain along travel corridors. How is that "for local charging"?

If you were focused on long distance travel, Gillette WY or Des Moines IA would be built yesterday, FL and parts of CA are almost comically dense with SCs. Does everybody put their Tesla on a flat bed, have it shipped to FL or CA, fly there, and then road trip in those states?

The secondary corridors are starting to get populated in many areas where the primary ones are already covered: I-95 near me is pretty well covered... now I-81 is starting to get chargers.

The places such as CA where they are dense is because the ownership density is great there. And spreading out the number of charging pedestals over several geographic sites not too far away from each other makes sense from both congestion avoidance and corridor access standpoints.

The current number of SCs in the US is sufficient to cover, I bet, every mile of every interstate in the country. But it is not the case that we have that level of coverage because the chargers are very dense (local travel) in some areas and not at all in some areas (would-be long distance travel).

If the SC's were evenly spread across interstates and on the edges of population centers, this would not be as much of an issue.

Spreading the supercharger density evenly over the geographic US ignores that the ownership density, as well as the travel corridor popularity are most definitely NOT evenly dispersed. Just about everything will be covered eventually, but you gotta start somewhere, but I'd give I-5 in California the nod over something in the middle of Nebraska as a better starting point.

 

[deonb]

Its not free. I paid $2000 for access.

This is analogy is a failure.

And you pay $1.74 for a soda at McDonalds with free refills.

How exactly is the analogy failing?

 

[Rocky_H]

I think Tesla, in a way, contradicted themselves. The SC's were supposed to be for long distance travel, but then they built the network out, in large part, for local charging.

If you were focused on long distance travel, Gillette WY or Des Moines IA would be built yesterday, FL and parts of CA are almost comically dense with SCs. Does everybody put their Tesla on a flat bed, have it shipped to FL or CA, fly there, and then road trip in those states?

The current number of SCs in the US is sufficient to cover, I bet, every mile of every interstate in the country. But it is not the case that we have that level of coverage because the chargers are very dense (local travel) in some areas and not at all in some areas (would-be long distance travel).

Most brilliant comment in this thread. If you go to the Supercharge.info map, and turn on the range circle of the Roseville Supercharger, and bring it down to 10 miles, there are THREE Superchargers in that circle! And Hawthorne, Culver City, and Redondo Beach fit within about a 6 mile radius circle. Wow, good thing they have one, oops, I mean three there, for traveling with a 265 mile range car. Meanwhile, the I-84 route from Oregon, through Idaho, to Utah still has a gap of 486 miles, where there are no alternate interstate routes. *facepalm*

 

[callmesam]

And you pay $1.74 for a soda at McDonalds with free refills.

How exactly is the analogy failing?

The analogy was napkins and catsup. And soda.

Either way way it doesn't fit.

Which is is why I choose to go with my purchase contract rather than rely on Tesla to "clarify" how much, when and why I can use a Supercharger.

It's a shame that current owners want to use shame to limit other owners use of the Supercharger rather than Tesla step up and either create a policy MOVING FORWARD or actually meet demand from owners who would like local charging and are willing to pay.

ill put it on the owners here:

What at is the exact policy regarding owners using the Supercharger?

Can a taxi use the supercharger?

Can a city dweller without sufficient charging at home?

how often can I use the Supercharger at the local mall? While I shop? Only if I drove a lot the night before a big road trip and I don't have enough time to charge?

 

[Drucifer]

Couldn't Tesla capture the VIN as soon as the car is plugged into a SC and if the owner lives (based on their profile ZIP Code) within an announced mile range, be sent a note if that owner appears to be abusing their SC privileges?

I would hope it would be after a pattern of use. I have stopped at my local supercharger once just to see how supercharging works, and make sure my car had no issues connecting and drawing current. I don't feel like experimenting/learning in the middle of a long trip.

 

[AudubonB]

scaesare From SW2Fiddler's post:





"For the Superchargers, as we said in the initial press release, the Superchargers are free, it's basically free long distance for life, forever. Um, so free long distance forever is what the Superchargers are providing. Now, there are a few people who are, like, quite agressively using it for local Supercharging, um, and we'll sort of send them just a reminder note that it's cool to do this occasionally, but it's not, it's meant to be a long-distance thing. But it is Free Long Distance Forever"

Thank you. To reiterate, for my money those notes had not yet begun...and very likely, after yesterday fewer of them will be needed than otherwise would have been the case.

 

[bonnie]

Most brilliant comment in this thread. If you go to the Supercharge.info map, and turn on the range circle of the Roseville Supercharger, and bring it down to 10 miles, there are THREE Superchargers in that circle! And Hawthorne, Culver City, and Redondo Beach fit within about a 6 mile radius circle. Wow, good thing they have one, oops, I mean three there, for traveling with a 265 mile range car. Meanwhile, the I-84 route from Oregon, through Idaho, to Utah still has a gap of 486 miles, where there are no alternate interstate routes. *facepalm*

Those three superchargers (Roseville, Rocklin, Folsom) are all along major traffic corridors. Folsom is on I50, Rocklin on I80, and Roseville at I80/65.

Conceivably you could argue that Roseville/Rocklin serve the same group & use that as evidence to support your post, but that would be ignoring the reality. The Rocklin site is at the Rocklin service center & was installed LONG after the Roseville (which is frequently jammed up with i80 drivers traveling between SF and Reno). It relieves most of the Roseville congestion & didn't require new land leases (already a Tesla site), just permits. I am of the opinion that when superchargers become congested, it's better to have additional locations, rather than just expand the existing one.

If you're going to use examples to support your POV, this probably isn't a good one.

 

[ecarfan]

Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving...

As was pointed out just upthread by @scaesare, density of owners is also important. There are far more Teslas driving long distance through the LA metro area than there are going from Oregon to Utah. And if you look at the Tesla SC map at Supercharger | Tesla Motors you will see that the I84 route you refer to will be filled in by the end of this year. Patience; Rome was not built in a day.

Most brilliant comment in this thread. If you go to the Supercharge.info map, and turn on the range circle of the Roseville Supercharger, and bring it down to 10 miles, there are THREE Superchargers in that circle! And Hawthorne, Culver City, and Redondo Beach fit within about a 6 mile radius circle. Wow, good thing they have one, oops, I mean three there, for traveling with a 265 mile range car. Meanwhile, the I-84 route from Oregon, through Idaho, to Utah still has a gap of 486 miles, where there are no alternate interstate routes. *facepalm*

 

[callmesam]

Those three superchargers (Roseville, Rocklin, Folsom) are all along major traffic corridors. Folsom is on I50, Rocklin on I80, and Roseville at I80/65.

Conceivably you could argue that Roseville/Rocklin serve the same group & use that as evidence to support your post, but that would be ignoring the reality. The Rocklin site is at the Rocklin service center & was installed LONG after the Roseville (which is frequently jammed up with i80 drivers traveling between SF and Reno). It relieves most of the Roseville congestion & didn't require new land leases (already a Tesla site), just permits. I am of the opinion that when superchargers become congested, it's better to have additional locations, rather than just expand the existing one.

If you're going to use examples to support your POV, this probably isn't a good one.

maybe you could address the other example in LA? Two along the 405 within 6 miles of each other with Hawthorne 1 mile off the 405 between the two . . .

3 Superchargers within 5 miles along the same Freeway.

 

[stopcrazypp]

maybe you could address the other example in LA? Two along the 405 within 6 miles of each other with Hawthorne 1 mile off the 405 between the two . . .

3 Superchargers within 5 miles along the same Freeway.

Those are "city" superchargers (which are characterized by multiple supercharger stations within 5-10 miles), which are meant for people without home charging. Tesla had been building them starting in London and cities in China. They have mentioned it a couple of times in shareholder presentations. However, they aren't meant for people who just want to save a few bucks on electricity but otherwise has easy access to home charging.

I have touched on this in other comments so don't want to rehash here:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...of-a-Model-S?p=1031470&viewfull=1#post1031470
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...of-a-Model-S?p=1030842&viewfull=1#post1030842

On the subject of people occasionally doing this, I don't think you will get a notice. As pointed out by others, Tesla has the data to know that you do home charging sessions regularly. It's the people that do it exclusively that will obviously get a notice. The only issue there is differentiating those who do it exclusively based on need (no home charging option), and I pointed out that they can write that exception in the notice. Of course if they do something like throttling then another scheme has to be figured out.

I'm seeing a lot of deja vu with unlimited data plans being switched to data caps. It's the few who ruin it for everyone else.

 

[efusco]

Perhaps mentioned up thread, but the routine personal use of superchargers will ultimately be to the detriment of Tesla and increase the cost of purchasing a Model S. Increase use means increase cost of electricity, increased cost to build a larger infrastructure, increased maintenance costs due to higher usage, etc. Perhaps those who need/wish to use the local SCs more frequently should be charged a monthly rate or something to allow the overall cost for the Model S to stay lower and not unfairly punish those who only infrequently use the SCs as they were intended. I've only used a SC one time for 30 minutes in the 2 1/2 years I've had my car...why should I subsidize someone who uses it daily?

 

[WarpedOne]

There is a simple way of resolving 'fair' use at prepaid rate, problem is it goes against the current and previous advertisement.
Every supercharger knows if a car that plugs in is legible for SC or not (remember those MS60 without SC access by default)?
So, clearly there is a way to distinguish customers already. Tesla can (hardly with Model S, simply with Model E) limit amount of supercharging with some schema.

It is not "free forever no matter how often" but only "free for ever at light usage", say at most 10 times per week, 20 times per month, 50 times per year. For more frequent SC charging one needs to open an account with Tesla and pay additional $.

I'd say such a schema would be a good balance between simple and fair usage and would limit 'freeloading'.

 

[David99]

If you were focused on long distance travel, Gillette WY or Des Moines IA would be built yesterday, FL and parts of CA are almost comically dense with SCs. Does everybody put their Tesla on a flat bed, have it shipped to FL or CA, fly there, and then road trip in those states?

It might seem that way from a distance but living in Southern California shows a different perspective. The number of Teslas sold here compared to the average in the US is immense. People really don't understand the density of Teslas here. I have 8 SC within a 100 mile radius, but the density of Teslas in California is probably 20 fold compared to Minnesota. I see 10+ Model S here every day. Tesla builds these stations based on demand as well. It makes perfect sense.

 

[Panu]

Btw we also have this price after gas saving on Finnish web page now. There is an explanation how the savings were calculated and the calculations assume that 30% of your electricity comes from superchargers. That sounds quite a lot to me and I guess I'm not supposed to get a note if I do that .

 

[callmesam]

Those are "city" superchargers (which are characterized by multiple supercharger stations within 5-10 miles), which are meant for people without home charging. Tesla had been building them starting in London and cities in China. They have mentioned it a couple of times in shareholder presentations. However, they aren't meant for people who just want to save a few bucks on electricity but otherwise has easy access to home charging.

I have touched on this in other comments so don't want to rehash here:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...of-a-Model-S?p=1031470&viewfull=1#post1031470
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...of-a-Model-S?p=1030842&viewfull=1#post1030842

On the subject of people occasionally doing this, I don't think you will get a notice. As pointed out by others, Tesla has the data to know that you do home charging sessions regularly. It's the people that do it exclusively that will obviously get a notice. The only issue there is differentiating those who do it exclusively based on need (no home charging option), and I pointed out that they can write that exception in the notice. Of course if they do something like throttling then another scheme has to be figured out.

I'm seeing a lot of deja vu with unlimited data plans being switched to data caps. It's the few who ruin it for everyone else.

or they could build their own stations and stop trying to limit people with notes and provide free the unlimited charging as promised.

 

[cpa]

It might seem that way from a distance but living in Southern California shows a different perspective. The number of Teslas sold here compared to the average in the US is immense. People really don't understand the density of Teslas here. I have 8 SC within a 100 mile radius, but the density of Teslas in California is probably 20 fold compared to Minnesota. I see 10+ Model S here every day. Tesla builds these stations based on demand as well. It makes perfect sense.

Moreover, The Los Angeles area and the Bay Area are popular destinations and throughways for travelers throughout the year. People travel to these areas or through these areas from elsewhere daily. Many other locations around the country are not nearly as popular year 'round. Sure, they will have seasonal travelers. But not to the extent that California has all the time. Then, when you factor in the snowbirds flocking to the desert each November, we get thousands more semi-permanent residents. Last December the Cathedral City Service Center said they had service appointments into January for visitors from out-of-state and out-of-country.

 

[Fiver]

Perhaps this is in reference to certain taxi companies overuse of superchargers?

 

[Electroman]

What at is the exact policy regarding owners using the Supercharger?

What is the exact policy on the number of napkins I can use in a McD ? What is the exact policy on sharing the free soda refills with my kids ?

What is the exact policy on using the restroom in a Burger King?

Remember in the US, unlike the cheapskates in Europe, fast food joints and gas stations would let you use the restroom for free *even* if you are not patronizing them. You could just simply use the restroom and walk out without even spending a penny or even letting them know, and they don't frown on that (atleast on the fast food places). Does that mean I can now simply stop using the rest room in my house and start using the one exclusively in my neighborhood BK?

 

[stopcrazypp]

There is a simple way of resolving 'fair' use at prepaid rate, problem is it goes against the current and previous advertisement.
Every supercharger knows if a car that plugs in is legible for SC or not (remember those MS60 without SC access by default)?
So, clearly there is a way to distinguish customers already. Tesla can (hardly with Model S, simply with Model E) limit amount of supercharging with some schema.

It is not "free forever no matter how often" but only "free for ever at light usage", say at most 10 times per week, 20 times per month, 50 times per year. For more frequent SC charging one needs to open an account with Tesla and pay additional $.

I'd say such a schema would be a good balance between simple and fair usage and would limit 'freeloading'.

I don't think such a scheme makes sense and over-complicates things just because a few chose to abuse the system. And it runs counter to the goal of Tesla of encouraging more people to take road trips in an EV (which is the best way to demonstrate the viability of EVs as "full purpose" vehicles and not just for local driving). Even if some people take more roadtrips than others, the problem is self limiting because only roughly 10-15% of miles are on longer trips greater than 100 miles, based on FHWA data. The supercharger miles being 5-10% of overall miles matches this data.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...e-at-a-supercharger/page7?p=354161#post354161

However, the problem of "freeloading" is not self limiting because it covers all use cases (daily and long distance travel). What limits "freeloading" are people's own moral compass and ethics. And when that is not enough, these notices by Tesla will help. I hope it does not reach a point where Tesla has to do mandatory throttling or start charging for use, as that defeats the purpose.