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Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving Notes

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Or they could publish charging history. They log exactly where the car is and how it's charged.

What is one reason people don't get their household condement and napkin requirements at McDonalds? Because it is recognized as narcisistic, selfish, antisocial behavior.

All the examples so far have been weak, they've been convenience or necessity rather than obviously abusive. I doubt very much those situations will warrant "letters". Nobody seems to be going out of their way to supercharge. I imaging that is the behavior Elon refers to, someone with charging at home who is never charging at home.

People taking spots at overcrowded SC's rather than charging overnight simply because they want to save $5 on electricity are unlikely to continue if the behavior is exposed to the light of day.
 
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maybe you could address the other example in LA? Two along the 405 within 6 miles of each other with Hawthorne 1 mile off the 405 between the two . . .

3 Superchargers within 5 miles along the same Freeway.

That's not my local neighborhood, so I don't know it as well. I was limiting my comments to facts.

Which is what I've been trying to do by posting information showing the original and continued intent of supercharging - all this hand wringing is over how different people are taking specific sentences and ignoring the context. From Day One, the intent of Supercharging has been to enable free long-distance driving. And for those of you with very short-term memories, you might think back to how amazed we all were that long-distance driving was going to be FREE. Many of you bought your Model S not knowing anything about Supercharging, much less that you'd never have to pay to drive cross-country.

I think most here are over analyzing. I suspect almost none of you would fall into the 'abuse' category & if you were made aware of the usage patterns of the people who DO fall into that category, you'd probably be completely outraged over their behavior.

Common sense should prevail. Can you imagine what could happen if Tesla vehicles became V2G-capable & everyone started heading to their local supercharger daily to power up their car & then drive home to transfer that energy to their Powerwall? THAT would be abusive, right? So I'm guessing everyone here could come up with scenarios that they consider abusive use. Only the line in the sand is in different places for all of us.

Here's a thought: How about we wait until someone reports getting one of those friendly reminders & then react? All this drama is probably over a small handful of people (oh wait, didn't Elon say it was a very small number? :)).
 
I think the biggest problem is courtesy and, in some cases, misunderstanding on what is best for charging the battery.

If you are local and you don't *need* the range right now, it is just common courtesy to yield a plug to someone that does. I see no problem with using a Supercharger for all your charging needs if no one else is waiting. But to hold someone up that *needs* the Supercharger so that you can drive the 3rd or 4th day from now? That just not polite. From a limited resource perspective and from a green energy perspective, it is better to charge at night at super off-peak so you don't hog a limited resource and simultaneously use the dirtiest power.

The other part is charging the battery like its a gas tank. I think some people are doing this and I've witnessed it at the Bethesda Supercharger where, with 1 Supercharger and 2 plugs, this issue is acute. I think some locals are literally charging to 100%. They then use a plug for not just 20 or 35 minutes, but literally 1.2 or 1.5 hours. That makes the situation far worse. It's bad for their battery, it's bad for the congestion it causes, it's bad all around.

If everyone just behaved, we wouldn't need special metering or billing or any other nonsense.

As for condos and those that find it hard to charge at home, I think that we need to press that at the governmental level. Make it such that HoA's and communities are likely to alter their rules and invest in the infrastructure necessary for charging near your home.
 
or they could build their own stations and stop trying to limit people with notes and provide free the unlimited charging as promised.

Are you deliberately ignoring what's been pointed out multiple times: Just because there are conditions on usage, does not mean it's not "free".

See also: Buffets. Napkins. Condiments. Soda refills. Parking for businesses.


Tesla is ALREADY paying your fuel costs for your vacations/road trips for life, and you are going to begrudge the fact they don't intend to pay for your daily commute fuel costs as well? Even though it's a fraction of what it would be with gas?
 
Couldn't Tesla capture the VIN as soon as the car is plugged into a SC and if the owner lives (based on their profile ZIP Code) within an announced mile range, be sent a note if that owner appears to be abusing their SC privileges?

It is more detailed than the VIN, as Tesla knows where, when and how much you charge every time and everyday!! And that I'm aware, there is nothing you can do to stop them from getting that data.

IMHO,
There are 3 reason to drive your Tesla: Business (necessity/convenience), Commute for Employment and Personal/Pleasure.

Business Use: Logic must tell us that Tesla cannot use its profits and expenditures to subsidize someone using a Tesla in a Business venture, buy way of the supercharger network usage, daily or otherwise.

Commute: Like wise, someone that has an earned income and chooses to commutes to their employment is reasonably expected to pay the daily cost of that commute regardless of where they live, the method and distance of their choosing. Can the employer compensate an employee for their commute cost and/or install a charging station? Certainly, however that is part of an employer's business decision and the employee's compensation.
However, the Tesla community and Investors should not be an unwilling part of that employees compensation.

Personal/Pleasure use: I surmise this is the only legitimate use for the Supercharger Network as associated with the Tesla advertised 'Free for Life for Ownership' and 'Long-distance travel'.

You will have your own opinions and draw your own conclusions.

How will Tesla know where and when I charge!!
From the Owners Manual: "This vehicle is equipped with electronic modules that monitor and record data from various vehicle systems, including the motor, Battery, braking and electrical systems. The electronic modules record information about various driving and vehicle conditions, including braking, acceleration, trip and other related information regarding your vehicle. These modules also record information about the vehicle’s features such as charging events and status, the enabling/disabling of various systems, diagnostic trouble codes, VIN, speed, direction and location. The data is stored by the vehicle and may be accessed, used and stored by Tesla service technicians during vehicle servicing or periodically transmitted to Tesla wirelessly through the vehicle’s telematics system.

From my perspective it is more about Tesla growing the brand and staying profitable than hurting the feeling of a few that abuse the privilege, when they believe they should be able to use the Supercharger Network everyday for any reason and they are told they can't.

Is Tesla concerned about the Supercharger Network roll-out and cost?
From the Tesla Annual Report, DECEMBER 31, 2014:
"We may not realize the benefits of our Supercharger network, which could harm our business, brand and operating results.
We continue to deploy Tesla Superchargers in the United States, Europe and Asia. Tesla Superchargers are a network of charging stations designed to provide fast-charge capability to owners of Model S vehicles with the Supercharging option. We intend to expand the Tesla Supercharger network throughout the U.S., Canada, Europe and Asia, but we may be unable to do so due to a number of factors, including the inability to secure, or delays in securing, suitable locations and permits, problems negotiating leases with landowners or obtaining required permits for such locations, difficulties in interfacing with the infrastructures of various utility companies and greater than expected costs and difficulties of installing, maintaining and operating the network.
We may also be unable to expand the Supercharger network as fast as we intend or as the public expects, or to place the charging stations in places our customers believe to be optimal. Furthermore, even where Superchargers exist, the increasing number of Model S vehicles as well as future vehicles such as Model X may oversaturate the available charging bays at such Superchargers, leading to increased wait times and dissatisfaction for customers. In addition, as we have announced that we will not be charging our customers to access this network in addition to what they have already paid for their vehicles, any significant unexpected costs that we encounter will entirely be borne by us and may harm our operating results. Although our Supercharger network is intended to address customer concerns regarding long-distance travel, this network may not result in increased reservations or sales of Model S or future vehicles like Model X. If our Supercharger network is not expanded as currently planned or as quickly as planned, we may not realize the benefits of our Supercharger network and our business and operating results could be materially affected. "

 
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You're right about the Bethesda supercharger. I stopped using it as soon as the CHAdeMO adapter came out. With the penetration of CHAdeMO charging in most cities, there is no longer a good reason to hog the local Superchargers, even for apartment dwellers such as yours truly.
 
Are you deliberately ignoring what's been pointed out multiple times: Just because there are conditions on usage, does not mean it's not "free".

See also: Buffets. Napkins. Condiments. Soda refills. Parking for businesses.


Tesla is ALREADY paying your fuel costs for your vacations/road trips for life, and you are going to begrudge the fact they don't intend to pay for your daily commute fuel costs as well? Even though it's a fraction of what it would be with gas?

Tesla is not paying my fuel costs for my vacation or road trips for life.
I paid for those trips.
I paid for that fuel.
I pay for access to the supercharging.
$2000.

Now Tesla wants renegotiate the deal but I don't agree.

You can take all of your analogies and do what you want.

I agree with Elon Musk who says you should not argue from analogy but from first principles.

first principle dictates that I have purchased access to supercharging network without restrictions for $2000.

If there were some restrictions, tesla should have stated this clearly when I made the purchase otherwise they don't have a leg to stand on.
 
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Now Tesla wants renegotiate the deal but I don't agree.

You can take all of your analogies and do what you want.

I agree with Elon Musk who says you should not argue from analogy but from first principles.

first principle dictates that I have purchased access to supercharging network without restrictions for $2000.

If there were some restrictions, tesla should have stated this clearly when I made the purchase otherwise they don't have a leg to stand on.

My prediction is that Tesla will not try to "renegotiate" any deals.

We are all a part of a grand experiment with wide-spread EV use. Tesla has delivered about 100k Model S's in almost 3 years. They have plans to ramp production up to multiples of 100k per year. If locals continue taking up valuable Supercharge Stalls by frequent local charging in a measurable way, Tesla will deal with it by changing the deal for new cars. In a year or a few, the volume of new cars will swamp out the the existing population.

My further prediction is that Tesla will add a line or two to some agreement where they reserve the right to charge customers who frequently use "local" Superchargers. The statement will be purposely vague so that Tesla can add "reasonable" financial charges for frequent, local Supercharging.

My prediction is that this process will start with a few reminder e-mails, then a human call, with each offering the Tesla owner the chance to justify their usage patterns. Justified uses would include proof of no home charging, regular long-distance trips needing a charge near home, etc. For current owners, it stops there, except nags may continue. For new owners, after the new "free, except..." words are added, and the notification and appeals process is complete, the frequent user will be put on a progressive plan with costs something like the following for each "local" Supercharger.

  • 000-150 minutes a month — Free
  • 150-300 minutes a month — $0.25 per minute
  • 300-600 minutes a month — $0.50 per minute
  • Over 600 minutes a month — $1.00 a minute
 
Okay, let's try this a different way:

No limitations on current Superchargers. Let the locals clog 'em up. Freedom of speech and the American way, etc. Onward! Y'all get your way. NO limitations.... and then, Tesla doesn't build another site, outside of those already promised, EVER. Note that they've kept their word to those who somehow are insistent that Tesla is changing (no recognition of the fact they have always said 'for long distance', but whatever).
Everyone feel better now? Win for all of us!

Alternatively, people could comply with the spirit and intent, quit waving flags around, and we all work together. Tesla keeps expanding sites because clearly we can all play nice together and with them and not abuse things.
 
It seems some people are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Everyone knows at some level that the intent of the supercharger network was to enable travel beyond the range of the car. Is there anyone here who will admit to using a local supercharger as their primary source of charging, who either has 240V charging at home or is able to install 240V charging at home, but routinely charges at a nearby supercharger instead of at home? If so I understand you're trying to justify what you are doing by parsing words. Everyone else, let's stop making an issue of this if it's not relevant to you.
 
Tesla is not paying my fuel costs for my vacation or road trips for life.
I paid for those trips.
I paid for that fuel.
I pay for access to the supercharging.
$2000.

You proved my point even though you were only close. Look back on the pages when it was a separately orderable option: The $2,000 option was to enable it on your car.

A subtle, but important, distinction that negates your assertions that you paid for the "fuel" itself.
 
You proved my point even though you were only close. Look back on the pages when it was a separately orderable option: The $2,000 option was to enable it on your car.

A subtle, but important, distinction that negates your assertions that you paid for the "fuel" itself.
+1
You paid for the supercharging hardware and software in the car. No promises about how many superchargers would be available, minimum charging rate, waiting time, etc. If you want Tesla to keep expanding the network people need to be reasonable and use it for its intended purpose-- for trips beyond the range of the car.
 
maybe you could address the other example in LA? Two along the 405 within 6 miles of each other with Hawthorne 1 mile off the 405 between the two . . .

3 Superchargers within 5 miles along the same Freeway.

traffic? how long does it take to get between each of them at peak hour?

- - - Updated - - -

It might seem that way from a distance but living in Southern California shows a different perspective. The number of Teslas sold here compared to the average in the US is immense. People really don't understand the density of Teslas here. I have 8 SC within a 100 mile radius, but the density of Teslas in California is probably 20 fold compared to Minnesota. I see 10+ Model S here every day. Tesla builds these stations based on demand as well. It makes perfect sense.

yes
same with bay area / sac. lots of back and forth trips
many people moved out of the bay towards Tracy in the 90's then elk grove and all the other Sac suburbs that are all practically connected now. yuk
 
One thing is for sure, regardless people doing the right thing or not, $2,000 for a lifetime of electricity is most likely financially unsustainable in the future. Consider more Teslas on the road, and the newer EV contingent that just wants an affordable EV to break the pump drain, makes me feel Tesla has a few solutions in mind. The only ones I see so far are, pay the current bulk upfront price and for those who drive locally, a surcharge depending on pattern on how far they drive, or how often, and most likely, a combination of both. I'm sure there are more solutions, but it would have to be something along those patterns. Any thoughts?

The only thing we can do to facilitate this transition, if ever it happens is to talk about it, educate people in a way that makes them understand the benefits on their own (not to explain it to them, that doesn't work all the time) and get them to naturally want to be part of that change, and not just to save money. Well, that's another topic altogether.
 
Very interesting thread! It is a complex issue and will become more so as the number of EVs increases. A narrow Tesla owner view of this seems most appropriate now, but eventually we have to be concerned about the bigger picture.

I live 65 km from the Bethesda SC, so am tempted to charge there during my "local" travels to and from Northern Virginia, which are usually ≥ 200 km round trip, about 50% of a "tank". A supercharger at a mall makes it tempting to charge while shopping or eating. Rarely, both slots (of the single charger) are occupied, but I don't usually need a charge to make it home without anxiety. I don't feel guilty about "topping up" when possible, nor do I feel put out if the charger is occupied. My suspicion is that few long distance through travelers are tempted to stop at that site, considering it is so limited in number of slots, tends to be slow if fully occupied, and that full SC sites are available in Woodbridge (54 km), Hagerstown (113 km) or Newark (161 km). Tesla lists Bethesda as a "temporary" Supercharger.

I have wondered aloud, sometimes on this forum, why I cannot use my Tesla battery to power systems in my home during a power outage, as I once thought would a significant benefit of owning an EV. That would make a purchase of a Tesla 10 kWh wall battery pretty silly. One person here pointed out that this capability would create the temptation to fill up at a nearby supercharger and use the power to supply home systems all the time. That wasn't what I had in mind. Rather, I would like to use my car as an emergency backup power system instead of a noisy gas powered generator, though if pressed, I would also like to be able to recharge the car battery with that generator.

In my opinion, Tesla should charge (low rates) for the electricity consumed at its superchargers, for the following reasons:
1. To acknowledge that energy should not be used as if it were free, no matter how efficient any EV may be.
2. To assert that payment of $2000 has been compensated by indefinite use of the Tesla charging network.
3. To enable the admittance of other EVs that adopt the Tesla charging technology (assuming their manufacturers contribute to the network hardware).
4. To neutralize the entire issue of whether owners are entitled to use the superchargers as we please.
5. To improve profitability by placing indeterminate costs where they belong, with the beneficiaries.
 
Exactly my point. Tesla thought $2000 for supercharging is sustainable, but apparently it not. Now they are trying to back track. But really the solutions should be multimodal:

1) Enable even faster charging for those batteries and setup that can take it. Musk was talking about liquid cooling the cables/connectors. This will reduce congestions because people might be in and out in 10 minutes. Then it would start to look like gas stations, though it will cost Tesla more money to retrofit and power to supply the cooled liquid.

2) Charge for EV charging for sure for the newer models, i.e. model 3, either though a plan like a cell phone plans or by use bases or some other way.

3) Build more stations.

4) Build more stalls per stations.

5) Set up new stations away from cities to discourage daily charging and encourage road trips.

6) Set up new stations closer to each other, i.e. a bunch within a few miles of each other, so if people on road trips see congestions, they can easily make it to another stations down the road.

IMO, tesla should do ALL of these to ensure the stations are not too congested over time.
 
Exactly my point. Tesla thought $2000 for supercharging is sustainable, but apparently it not. Now they are trying to back track. But really the solutions should be multimodal:

1) Enable even faster charging for those batteries and setup that can take it. Musk was talking about liquid cooling the cables/connectors. This will reduce congestions because people might be in and out in 10 minutes. Then it would start to look like gas stations, though it will cost Tesla more money to retrofit and power to supply the cooled liquid.

2) Charge for EV charging for sure for the newer models, i.e. model 3, either though a plan like a cell phone plans or by use bases or some other way.

3) Build more stations.

4) Build more stalls per stations.

5) Set up new stations away from cities to discourage daily charging and encourage road trips.

6) Set up new stations closer to each other, i.e. a bunch within a few miles of each other, so if people on road trips see congestions, they can easily make it to another stations down the road.

IMO, tesla should do ALL of these to ensure the stations are not too congested over time.

Right. So that some people can continue to abuse the privilege. Why should Tesla have to do anything? They've met their commitment to build out a network. Done. Tesla is well within their rights to claim 'well, we built stations like we said we would ... no more!'. That's the unintended consequence of claiming it's fine to take advantage of the system. They could quit expanding. Then what little textual loophole will people fall back on? It was a great surprise when Supercharging was made available at no cost for long-distance travel. It saddens me to see people arguing it is now their right to use it how they want.

I will reiterate since some are claiming the messaging has changed: On Day One, it was claimed that superchargers were for long-distance travel. That message has been consistent.