Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving Notes

[neroden]

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on whether or not Tesla has toyed with bait and switching at all (in strict terms, I think they haven't), but I'm not sure in theoretical terms bait-and-oops is much different from bait-and-switch. Doing the right thing is easy when it is easy. Doing the right thing when it is hard is the measure of a person as well as a company. If a company markets a certain way, benefits from it, and then finds out they can't fulfill their obligations, trying to quietly walk away from the wouldn't sound like a morally sustainable solution.

I will note that Tesla has attempted to bait-and-switch several owners on Ranger service; I believe all of these have been reversed after heavy pushback, but it's happened several times. Tesla used extraordinarily shady vague threats of not honoring the warranty to push the "service plan" early on. Tesla has failed to comply with the copyright license of Linux, so they're ripping off hundreds of hard-working programmers. On the whole, there are a bunch of ways in which Tesla has *not been ethical*.

I don't think this is a good thing. Straighten up and fly right.

I'll say this, Tesla's accounting has been very transparent, so that's something they do better than the average NYSE or NASDAQ listed company.

 

[deonb]

It would be interesting to learn how they arrived at the number.

If I were to guess, they took a number like this one:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...ips-could-be-made-in-electric-cars-says-study

So figured 5% of all trips need Supercharging. Then looked up average miles driven per year (13476), so 5% of that = 673.8 miles.

673.8 miles at 350wh/m = 235 kWh / year.
235 kWh per year @ 10.45c = $24.5575/year. Multiplied by 20 years = $491.

Hey... what do you know.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It was also marketed as being able to eat a quick meal while you charge, but I've been to many chargers and Tesla has never given me a meal.

See, I can also selectively read the web site and ignore everything that doesn't suit me...

[EDIT]. Geez... what am I thinking with free food. Instead:

"Free Model S P85D for life"

The words are all on that page.

I would argue that getting the message of free and unlimited charging from Tesla's sales and marketing (prior to the adjustments to their message) is quite a bit more realistic than likely than the silly strawmen you offer. But that's my opinion, I understand there is a genuine disagreement of what Tesla's marketing was saying and how it reasonably was to be perceived.

But your free meal and free P85D examples are just out there. I guess an attempt to make the other side look absurd.

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The reason I've not picked up on the bait to discuss bait in switch is that I think the intent/nature of the SC infrastructure is perfectly clear. There is no reason to discuss B&S here.

Now if Tesla had stood on the mountain top and touted free for life driving and counted those gas savings in their pitch for the car (thank you stop of that one) then told me I could not use SCs for daily charging, I would have a problem.

My point about bait and switch and morality was that the moral compass tells very different things if one sees this as a corporate bait and switch or as a consumer entitlement issue. Even though I couldn't get a vocal understanding from you, I hope you do get the difference - even if you don't believe bait and switch applies here.

Personally I think Tesla shouted from the rooftop with Superchargers for a variety of needs, not just long-distance driving. People always skip the urban chargers (e.g. London) or Schipol's taxis when they make that highly simplified - just like Elon did - summary of the supposed rules. I agree Tesla never promoted it as all your charging, because they also promote home and destination charging. I believe at some point Tesla calculated 30% of their gas savings to come from Superchargers. I would need A LOT of local Supercharging (were there any) for that calculation to apply to me for example.

There are always less and more users in any fixed-price system.

 

[bwa]

Inform the person that their use isn't what Tesla intended and have them be more mindful of their actions I'd guess.

This will cut down on a lot of the unintended uses, but it won't get rid of it all. A sensible approach to somehow more forcefully limiting supercharger used to long-distance travel seems reasonable, although an intelligent person would have to design such a system.

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My take on the comments is that Tesla is thinking of introducing a usage fee for SuperCharging close to home. This would both prevent abuse and solve the problem of how to accommodate owners who don't have access to a home charge station.

By qualifying "free" as referring to long distance travel only, I think Elon is setting direction for policy and warming everyone up to the idea of paying for local SuperCharging.

Aha. Of course you're likely right or close to right. BTW, fee for local SC & free for non-local SC sounds like a reasonable, effective and mostly accurate system. But it wouldn't prevent long distance daily drivers (2-3 hour commuters). Maybe only energy used for miles outside the range of your car from home could be free, slicing a little bit into the multihour commuter free zone. Of course, that would start all the arguments of what the range of your car is from home, so the solution to that is just to pick a solid round number close to what it should be at EPA 80% SOC clear room temp flat straight terrain.

 

[Panu]

I believe at some point Tesla calculated 30% of their gas savings to come from Superchargers. I would need A LOT of local Supercharging (were there any) for that calculation to apply to me for example.

A few weeks ago the prices in Finnish Tesla design studio changed to include gas savings. At the bottom of the design studio page there is explanation on how the gas savings were calculated and the calculations assume that 30% of all charging is Supercharging. The same calculations are presented at least in Swedish Tesla design studio.

 

[bwa]

The "arrangement" was already made when I purchaed the car...it was "free supercharging for life", not "free remote supercharging for life".

In changing policy, you (or your car) could become grandfathered. I'm not saying this is what they're going to do, but it would make sense.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

In changing policy, you (or your car) could become grandfathered. I'm not saying this is what they're going to do, but it would make sense.

That would of course be perfectly fair as long as it happens openly and clearly. I guess the vagueness of Tesla's comments on the topic is what leaves such a fertile ground for debate.

 

[lolachampcar]

AR,

I've posted earlier that my comments are limited to a US viewpoint. I have no knowledge of what Tesla has or has not said regarding SC use in other countries and thus can not comment. However, Elon's comments were regarding a US customer (I believe) and, in that case, I am directly apposed to Scotty's position.

 

[deonb]

A few weeks ago the prices in Finnish Tesla design studio changed to include gas savings. At the bottom of the design studio page there is explanation on how the gas savings were calculated and the calculations assume that 30% of all charging is Supercharging. The same calculations are presented at least in Swedish Tesla design studio.

Nice find!

The U.S. design studio also says:
"We’ve also assumed the national average of $0.12 per kilowatt hour for electricity, 10% charging on Tesla’s Supercharger network enabling free long distance travel and $3.90 per gallon for premium gasoline over the next five years."

This is a bit disingenuous since Elon just said (28:40) that:
"Superchargers are only 5% to 8% of the energy"

If really 10% of charging was done on the Supercharger network, that would imply 1347 miles/year, which would mean 471kWh per vehicle. That will cost them at least $50 per year, or $1000 over the life of the car.

Tesla is playing it fast-and-lose with the SEC. Saying publically that they expect 10% of charging to be on Supercharging, but only adding a liability to cover 5% of charging.

(No idea why they would say 30% in Finland and 10% in the U.S. though)

 

[AnxietyRanger]

AR,

I've posted earlier that my comments are limited to a US viewpoint. I have no knowledge of what Tesla has or has not said regarding SC use in other countries and thus can not comment. However, Elon's comments were regarding a US customer (I believe) and, in that case, I am directly apposed to Scotty's position.

My subjective understanding from conversations with a wide variety of owners is that this overall feeling of what Tesla marketed isn't markedly different in the U.S. or in Europe.

A key point in this has been the sales reps on the floor that certainly have taken the Supercharger free, unlimited message and ran with it - on a global scale. I understand that all of our viewpoints are, no matter how hard we try, subjective in the end. Neither of us has a completely objective or wide perspective to U.S., EU or global markets. Any viewpoint is, by nature, limited. So the best we can do, I guess, is to try and form our views as best we can - and that we all do.

It was a good marketing message. I do wonder if Tesla now forces them to change that.

 

[deonb]

A key point in this has been the sales reps on the floor that certainly have taken the Supercharger free, unlimited message and ran with it

How many sales reps did you speak to in how many different stores?

 

[Danal]

Some feel, perhaps a minority on this TMC thread, Tesla used the generalized message of free Supercharging for life as a marketing tool, intentionally without limitations to strenghten the marketing message - and that Tesla sales people used the message liberally, thus creating the perception that Supercharging is not - either legally or morally - limited to any specific use. Some of these people feel e.g. the lunch refill argument does not apply, because Tesla made use of the implication that there are absolutely no limits, similar to a restaurant selling you a mug and saying come refill anytime.

Who would be comfortable with this summary and just agreeing to disagree on the last part? I know I am.

I comfortable with your entire summary. Except that last part. "Feel"? "Implication"? Nope. I was directly stated by official Tesla Motors representatives (both in the store and when they visited the my workplace with several cars on a "green day") that SuperChargers were free for unlimited use as long as you own the car. We had whole conversations about the limitations or lack thereof.

As I mentioned in a prior post, I don't, and won't ever, have a SC where I can skip any significant portion of my home charging. So my participation in this thread is purely abstract.

But please, people who are saying "be reasonable" or "don't cherry pick the web site"... please acknowledge that at least some people, including me, were explicitly told by official company representatives that supercharging was absolutely unrestricted, including asking for clarification on "travel only" and being told "nope, unlimited".

 

[AnxietyRanger]

A few weeks ago the prices in Finnish Tesla design studio changed to include gas savings. At the bottom of the design studio page there is explanation on how the gas savings were calculated and the calculations assume that 30% of all charging is Supercharging. The same calculations are presented at least in Swedish Tesla design studio.

It is a Europe-wide message I believe. Here is the UK quote:

Petrol Savings

Electric vehicles are less expensive to fuel than petrol powered vehicles. The average person drives approximately 8,000 miles and spends around £1,000 on petrol per year. In comparison, the cost of electricity to power Model S over the same distance is ten times lower. Over the five year average length of car ownership, that’s approximately £4,000 in petrol savings.

We've assumed a fuel economy of 39.2 miles per gallon for a comparable petrol powered car. We’ve also assumed the national average of £0.14 per kilowatt hour for electricity, 30% charging on Tesla’s Supercharger network enabling free long distance travel, and £1.33 per liter for premium petrol over the next five years.

Tesla Model S drivers are in band A for CO2 omissions and pay no standard road tax compared with, by way of example, standard road tax of £290 in the first year and £205 annually subsequently for a petrol or diesel band H car.

 

[lolachampcar]

The message migrates and morphs the further you get from the oracle. Tesla is learning the hard way that those stodgy old training camps and recurrent sales training seminars are somewhat necessary when you try to herd a large number of twenty something cats.

I would not believe much of anything a dealer sales person tells me and verify all points that are important. Likewise, I understand that the front end sales person at Tesla is well intentioned but also young and youthfully enthusiastic. If I was told (and I was not) that I could do all my charging for free, I would have to verify that as it sounds too good to be true and would not have been consistent with what I had read of the SC network. See previous posts regarding too good to be true but the short version is shame on them for saying it but more shame on me for believing it.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I comfortable with your entire summary. Except that last part. "Feel"? "Implication"? Nope. I was directly stated by official Tesla Motors representatives (both in the store and when they visited the my workplace with several cars on a "green day") that SuperChargers were free for unlimited use as long as you own the car. We had whole conversations about the limitations or lack thereof.

As I mentioned in a prior post, I don't, and won't ever, have a SC where I can skip any significant portion of my home charging. So my participation in this thread is purely abstract.

But please, people who are saying "be reasonable" or "don't cherry pick the web site"... please acknowledge that at least some people, including me, were explicitly told by official company representatives that supercharging was absolutely unrestricted, including asking for clarification on "travel only" and being told "nope, unlimited".

I understand that. My summary attempted to find a neutral tone, which is hard.

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How many sales reps did you speak to in how many different stores?

Personally just a few. But my impression is based, in large part, on what I've read on TMC and Tesla Motors forums as well as some national forums. Even looking at this thread, and the two-three sister threads, the stories of "free, unlimited" sales pitches seem quite common to me.

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The message migrates and morphs the further you get from the oracle. Tesla is learning the hard way that those stodgy old training camps and recurrent sales training seminars are somewhat necessary when you try to herd a large number of twenty something cats.

I would not believe much of anything a dealer sales person tells me and verify all points that are important. Likewise, I understand that the front end sales person at Tesla is well intentioned but also young and youthfully enthusiastic. If I was told (and I was not) that I could do all my charging for free, I would have to verify that as it sounds too good to be true and would not have been consistent with what I had read of the SC network. See previous posts regarding too good to be true but the short version is shame on them for saying it but more shame on me for believing it.

I understand that. Still, Tesla's message on this one was (I maintain - by intent) ambiguous enough to suggest those sales-rep's weren't making a mistake. They were using the selling points they had in their arsenal - and this was a genuine one, until Tesla apparently decided to start moderating that message a little for whatever reason.

I also think Tesla's message on a corporate level was "free, unlimited". It definitely was not long-distance only in any case, considering e.g. London and Schipol examples.

 

[deonb]

Personally just a few. But my impression is based, in large part, on what I've read on TMC and Tesla Motors forums as well as some national forums. Even looking at this thread, and the two-three sister threads, the stories of "free, unlimited" sales pitches seem quite common to me.

All of those I've seen on here has been based on the web site. You're the only person who has ever given me an impression that they got that in person from a Salesperson...

If I'm wrong on this and this was a message from a store, anybody else, please speak up now.

Who on here has had a Tesla sales person, before ordering the car, give them any impression that they can reduce their ownership cost by Supercharging? Or pushed 'free, unlimited' as a bigger deal than 'long distance' in any way?

 

[callmesam]

All of those I've seen on here has been based on the web site. You're the only person who has ever given me an impression that they got that in person from a Salesperson...

If I'm wrong on this and this was a message from a store, anybody else, please speak up now.

Who on here has had a Tesla sales person, before ordering the car, give them any impression that they can reduce their ownership cost by Supercharging? Or pushed 'free, unlimited' as a bigger deal than 'long distance' in any way?

After the D event, i convinced a friend whose condo doesn't have any fixed parking to buy a MS. He was told repeatedly, by multiple employees, that he was free to use the Supercharger 4 miles from his house as his primary charger.

No limitations.

I called the Sales manager this week to confirm he was doing the "right thing" and she confirmed.

@AnxietyRanger,

+1 on your patience and good humor. I don't think TM is involved with any bait and switch since their policy has not actually changed. My sources are telling me this can be traced back to a few people that have been parking overnight at Superchargers and other antisocial behavior. Not normal (even local) use.

So perhaps those on this board would do well to direct recriminations at Tesla rather than owners for any (of their) confusion. Tesla is quite clear that locals may use Supercharger, even exclusively.

 

[deonb]

After the D event, i convinced a friend whose condo doesn't have any fixed parking to buy a MS. He was told repeatedly, by multiple employees, that he was free to use the Supercharger 4 miles from his house as his primary charger. No limitations.

That's condo charging. Not TCO charging. There has never been a dispute on here regarding condo charging.

 

[callmesam]

That's condo charging. Not TCO charging. There has never been a dispute on here regarding condo charging.

Why not? If the website is so very clear and explicit to what is being offered is only "long distance travel."

If tesla had truly wanted to offer only long distance travel they needed only to insert a single word: "the supercharger network is ONLY for long distance travel."

Easy.

 

[dsm363]

I will note that Tesla has attempted to bait-and-switch several owners on Ranger service; I believe all of these have been reversed after heavy pushback, but it's happened several times. Tesla used extraordinarily shady vague threats of not honoring the warranty to push the "service plan" early on. Tesla has failed to comply with the copyright license of Linux, so they're ripping off hundreds of hard-working programmers. On the whole, there are a bunch of ways in which Tesla has *not been ethical*.

I don't think this is a good thing. Straighten up and fly right.

I'll say this, Tesla's accounting has been very transparent, so that's something they do better than the average NYSE or NASDAQ listed company.

Will you please take action on this Linux issue. You've talked about it for three years at this point.