Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving Notes

[jerry33]

That seems contrary to Elon's statement, which is why I quoted it. My home power is anything but green, and, knowing Duke Energy, I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to change. Is Elon's plan totally at the mercy of local utilities? If so, I'm not as impressed.

There is a plan to put up enough solar panels to cover the SC usage, but right now the emphasis is on getting enough SCs out there (as it should be). By driving a Tesla, you're already helping the air quality regardless of the power mix in your area. Even in the 97% coal state of West Virginia, you're still better off because the pollution isn't in the city where it directly effects people, and only the Prius would be better than a Tesla anyway.

 

[stopcrazypp]

That seems contrary to Elon's statement, which is why I quoted it. My home power is anything but green, and, knowing Duke Energy, I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to change. Is Elon's plan totally at the mercy of local utilities? If so, I'm not as impressed.

Elon's statement does not say supercharger power is cleaner than home power. For example, if someone installs solar panels at home, how is a supercharger station with going to be cleaner than that? And as mention previously, if Tesla buys power from a renewable power program and you do the same, how is the station going to be cleaner than that?

I think you are putting your own interpretation into it and stretching it to justify doing daily charging at supercharger stations. I think Elon's comments are pretty clear: it is okay to occasionally do some local supercharging, but doing it frequently is discouraged. If you visit your supermarket and you top it off a bit as a convenience (while most of the stalls are empty) that is fine. But if you find yourself purposely holding off on charging at home just to hit the supermarket to do your charging, I think that is falling into the frequently category.

 

[dsm363]

I'm a new owner and have been living off of the SuperCharger station nearby. I have been concerned about the supercharging and the affect on the battery. Also PG&E takes a month to change billing cycle and still waiting on getting an electrician to drop circuit for me.

Supercharging locally because you don't have charging at home is fine. My comments weren't directed at you.

 

[S100D]

No. Do not say that, because it is not true.

Beside the fact that SCs clogged with locals is mostly just a problem for other locals, more teslas = more superchargers, which is mathematically better for ALL owners.

That a fraction of owners do not have the ability to charge at home makes no difference on whether or not a supercharger site is clogged.

BXR, what I said is true. Tesla is not going to install additional Superchargers so that Tesla owners can do local charging no matter how many Teslas that they sell.

Tesla owners traveling and having to wait at a Supercharger because locals have the Superchargers tied up are going to be very angry. If Tesla does not stop this local Supercharging issue now it will only get worse after the Model 3 is in production. Tesla currently has plans to install Superchargers on the major highways across the United States for long distance travel, not for constant local charging at Superchargers.

Tesla has a online calculator that calculates the dollars that you will save by owning a Tesla. It asks you to enter your local cents per kilowatt to calculate the savings. No where in the calculator does it ask how many times a month that you will use the Supercharger to reduce your charging cost to zero.

I recommend that Tesla do the following:

• Send Tesla owners a letter telling them that they are charging too frequently at Superchargers - (They have already done this)
• Send Tesla owners a second letter if they continue abusing the Supercharger use and tell them there will be consequences.
• Make software changes to the firmware so that those that continue to do local charging, the Supercharger will only provide enough power to get them back to their home. This is very easy to do since Tesla knows your home address and knows how many times you charge close to your home. If those Tesla owners do not have a charger at home, they can call a tow truck and have their car trucked to a type II charger where they will have to pay for the charge.
• When the Model 3 production starts, Tesla should change the language on using Superchargers. Superchargers are free as long as they are not used for local charging. For those Tesla owners that want to use Superchargers for local charging, they will give Tesla a credit card and they will be charged a flat rate of $15 to $20 per charge.

 

[209California]

Charging frequently at your nearby supercharger will negatively affect the battery. Charging at distant superchargers is fine. (If only we could convince new owners of this!). Seriously, you couldn't have a 14-50 installed while your car was on order?

I purchased mine pre-owned private party. I'm working on getting one installed

Supercharging locally because you don't have charging at home is fine. My comments weren't directed at you.

@dsm363 I know, the topic was very interesting. Once i drop my circuit in place, I will be good. But I wont shy away from using the local supercharger, it's literally 5 miles away, hard not too. Besides I only want to save more to get another vehicle

 

[Ugliest1]

Not today in the digital age. You can buy a $5 cheeseburger electronically and the company makes money.

One advantage of the adapter system would be the lack of billing. After paying for an meter-adapter, it's an annual billing.

I have to disagree. Besides paying for the meter-adapter (which itself would be hundreds of thousands for installation worldwide), it's the financial tracking and billing software I'm talking about. In today's world, that would be many hundreds of thousands dollars no matter how you cut it. And that money is better spent installing several more supercharger sites.

 

[jerry33]

BXR, what I said is true. Tesla is not going to install additional Superchargers so that Tesla owners can do local charging no matter how many Teslas that they sell.

This is not entirely true. Tesla already installs SCs in places where home charging is limited, so that SCs can be used for daily charging. I agree that in places where it's easy to install home charging, they won't support daily use.

 

[GKwey]

There is only one class using superchargers no matter where, within city centers or not: Tesla owners who paid for it for the life of the cars.

Stop dropping the seed for newest kind of discrimination within the smallest set of people, Tesla owners, by creating these two classes: locals and non-locals. We in U.S. has conquered so many discriminations, from race to religion to sex to pay (same pay for same work) to sex orientation... This list will go on and on and new kinds of discrimination will be discovered and fought over for sure. But we sure don't need a new one for people who loves their Tesla. And I am dead sure Elon don't want it for the Tesla cult he help created all on his own as well. If Elon can take back the word "road trips" from his statements about using superchargers, I am sure he would. Surely superchargers extend range of Tesla cars. But free charge for life is free charge for life, people, wether you are doing road trip or not.

So why don't we stop talking about locals vs non-locals to prevent any future conflicts between them at any superchargers in the future. Like Obama or Hillary or Trump said, I forgot which but anyone can say that even you and me, that we are better than that and it's not the way of life in American.

And the funny part of it all is, any of us can be either "local" or "non-local" depends where we take our Tesla to. So why people is so hot on this debate is puzzling.

 

[ohmman]

discrimination

I don't think this means what you think it means.

 

[ShotgunF15E]

BXR, what I said is true. Tesla is not going to install additional Superchargers so that Tesla owners can do local charging no matter how many Teslas that they sell.

Tesla owners traveling and having to wait at a Supercharger because locals have the Superchargers tied up are going to be very angry. If Tesla does not stop this local Supercharging issue now it will only get worse after the Model 3 is in production. Tesla currently has plans to install Superchargers on the major highways across the United States for long distance travel, not for constant local charging at Superchargers.

Tesla has a online calculator that calculates the dollars that you will save by owning a Tesla. It asks you to enter your local cents per kilowatt to calculate the savings. No where in the calculator does it ask how many times a month that you will use the Supercharger to reduce your charging cost to zero.

I recommend that Tesla do the following:

• Send Tesla owners a letter telling them that they are charging too frequently at Superchargers - (They have already done this)
• Send Tesla owners a second letter if they continue abusing the Supercharger use and tell them there will be consequences.
• Make software changes to the firmware so that those that continue to do local charging, the Supercharger will only provide enough power to get them back to their home. This is very easy to do since Tesla knows your home address and knows how many times you charge close to your home. If those Tesla owners do not have a charger at home, they can call a tow truck and have their car trucked to a type II charger where they will have to pay for the charge.
• When the Model 3 production starts, Tesla should change the language on using Superchargers. Superchargers are free as long as they are not used for local charging. For those Tesla owners that want to use Superchargers for local charging, they will give Tesla a credit card and they will be charged a flat rate of $15 to $20 per charge.

Not once during the buying process of my car did any salesperson say I couldn't or shouldn't use Superchargers....period. In fact, quite the opposite.

I recommend if certain SuperChargers are getting busy, you write TESLA a letter asking them to build more.

Frankly, I think Tesla made this a problem by where they have chosen to put some of the Superchargers. Let's build the only supercharger in 50 miles at the mall where everyone shops. Gee, who do you think is going to use it? People coming off the freeway needing to recharge on their trip or the locals going to the mall to shop? Both. Thus causing more problems. Tesla could have built the same somewhere right off the freeway and no where near a place where all the locals would go, but they did anyway.

This anger directed at other Tesla owners needs to stop. No one is doing anything wrong.

 

[cpa]

BXR, what I said is true. Tesla is not going to install additional Superchargers so that Tesla owners can do local charging no matter how many Teslas that they sell.

Tesla owners traveling and having to wait at a Supercharger because locals have the Superchargers tied up are going to be very angry. If Tesla does not stop this local Supercharging issue now it will only get worse after the Model 3 is in production. Tesla currently has plans to install Superchargers on the major highways across the United States for long distance travel, not for constant local charging at Superchargers.

Tesla has a online calculator that calculates the dollars that you will save by owning a Tesla. It asks you to enter your local cents per kilowatt to calculate the savings. No where in the calculator does it ask how many times a month that you will use the Supercharger to reduce your charging cost to zero.

I recommend that Tesla do the following:

• Send Tesla owners a letter telling them that they are charging too frequently at Superchargers - (They have already done this)
• Send Tesla owners a second letter if they continue abusing the Supercharger use and tell them there will be consequences.
• Make software changes to the firmware so that those that continue to do local charging, the Supercharger will only provide enough power to get them back to their home. This is very easy to do since Tesla knows your home address and knows how many times you charge close to your home. If those Tesla owners do not have a charger at home, they can call a tow truck and have their car trucked to a type II charger where they will have to pay for the charge.
• When the Model 3 production starts, Tesla should change the language on using Superchargers. Superchargers are free as long as they are not used for local charging. For those Tesla owners that want to use Superchargers for local charging, they will give Tesla a credit card and they will be charged a flat rate of $15 to $20 per charge.

In theory, the letter route seems like a good first step. However, as many of us on here can attest (I among them) the selection process that Tesla used to send out these letters was really poor. The accusatory tone and condescending reference to the "conveniences of home charging," were strikes two and three.

I believe that most individuals would respond to a more personalized notification, along the lines of, "Periodically, we generate internal Supercharger reports to develop many types of usage data. Among the data that we determine is individual Supercharger usage. We notice that between March 1, 2016 and June 30, 2016 you have availed yourself of Supercharging 94 times and received 3,093 kWh of electricity at three different locations. We understand that not all owners have access to home or workplace charging, and if you are one of those individuals, please accept our apologies for including you on our distribution list. If you do have access to home and/or workplace charging, we urge you to use those sources as your primary means to charge your battery, so that long distance travelers can charge and not risk having to wait for an opening."

In my case, Tesla could have run a simple test to determine (1) Is there a "local" Supercharger for me? (There was not last summer.) (2) Exactly where did I charge? (I took three road trips from May through August and Supercharged about 60 times.)

 

[scaesare]

Stop dropping the seed for newest kind of discrimination within the smallest set of people, Tesla owners, by creating these two classes: locals and non-locals.

Oh boy.

Before long Godwin's Law will be in play...

 

[4SUPER9]

I believe that most individuals would respond to a more personalized notification, along the lines of, "Periodically, we generate internal Supercharger reports to develop many types of usage data.... We notice that between March 1, 2016 and June 30, 2016 you have availed yourself of Supercharging 94 times and received 3,093 kWh of electricity at three different locations. We understand that not all owners have access to home or workplace charging... ."

Thank you for bringing us back to the original point of this thread, and that is that many people received letters who were clearly not abusing the SC's, in fact, in some cases, barely used them at all. TM's algorithm appeared to be one of no algorithm at all. It seemed almost random. To me, I found this most disturbing in that it came from a company that prides itself on software that runs a vehicle on which our lives are dependent. I believe their intentions were good. Somebody made a terrible mistake, and I am willing to guess that person got an earful from his or her supervisor. Your example seems much more appropriate. The easiest approach is for them to go for the low hanging fruit (an example I could relate to just today as I was stealing lemons from my mother's tree). Send letters to those who routinely park at the same location for hours after a charge, then maybe those you frequent the same supercharger often. This in now way stops locals who must rely on SC's for their charging needs, but it may give pause to those you have other options and instead take advantage (my guess is a small minority). And, of course, manually screen the letters for appropriateness before sending them out.

 

[bonnie]

But free charge for life is free charge for life, people, wether you are doing road trip or not.

You forgot the qualifier. Free supercharging for long-distance travel kind of implies non-local, yes?

As for the rest of your post ... I can't even. Just. Cannot.

 

[Boatguy]

I don't know what Tesla's strategy is, or how much money they've allocated to build more superchargers or expand new ones. But the "Tragedy of the Commons" tell us that the SC's will increasingly be abused to the detriment of other owners.
I believe there should be an expectation that an owner will have their own means to charge their car and that the SC network is for "touring" away from home. That means a charger may be placed in a location which is "local" to many (e.g., a mall), but "on the road" for me, like L.A. since I live near S.F.

I think it would be perfectly reasonable for Tesla to implement a limitation on "local" charging. Something like your usage of chargers within 50 miles of your home is limited to 300kWh / year, and after that you are charged some outrageous rate for electricity. This would facilitate the situation where someone needs a charge half a dozen times a year for whatever reason in order to get home, but discourage abuse. The price of charging would have to be set so that it is not economically viable to pay at the SC rather than install a charger (or 14-50 outlet) at home.

Some will game the system by changing their address to somewhere away from their actual residence, but such a policy would probably be effective in reducing abuse to a tolerable level while having no negative impact on everyone else.

 

[bxr140]

Tesla is not going to install additional Superchargers so that Tesla owners can do local charging no matter how many Teslas that they sell.

It's all about getting past the short term woe-is-me/instant gratification mentality and understanding the longer term vision.

First, it is fact that the supercharger network is still quite immature. Second, it takes little more than very basic reasoning to see that the success of Tesla is very much reliant on the success of the supercharger network.

Combine those two and it's obvious that it is in everyone's best interest to expand the supercharger network. How does that happen? While we may not know exactly how the network is funded, most people agree that the only real fuel on that fire is pushing units out the back door of the Fremont shop. Ergo, more cars = more chargers.

As is obvious from Tesla's continuing buildout of the network, local charging is clearly a problem they're working to solve by adding more chargers. It's all about charger density, and tesla is absolutely working on more sub/urban sites, even knowing that much of their use will come from locals. That they didn't realize so many affluent people would waste their time saving three bucks a week is somewhat immaterial; It's an "if you can beat them, join them" game at this point.

Limiting charging (pay per use, proximity to home, etc) is an exclusionary measure that is counterproductive.

 

[stopcrazypp]

As is obvious from Tesla's continuing buildout of the network, local charging is clearly a problem they're working to solve by adding more chargers. It's all about charger density, and tesla is absolutely working on more sub/urban sites, even knowing that much of their use will come from locals. That they didn't realize so many affluent people would waste their time saving three bucks a week is somewhat immaterial; It's an "if you can beat them, join them" game at this point.

Limiting charging (pay per use, proximity to home, etc) is an exclusionary measure that is counterproductive.

Actually the solution to local charging is not adding more superchargers. I think Tesla already sees that's a losing strategy. Initially the strategy was to install superchargers inside NYC for local charging (emulating the stations they installed for Hong Kong and other large cities), but they have abandoned that and instead are installing HPWCs. Those make more sense for local charging (much cheaper to install, and local facility pays for electricity instead of Tesla). And this only applies as a solution to the people who have no easy means for charging at home. I don't think Tesla ever intended to offer charging to offset those already with home charging.

 

[RogerHScott]

you're still better off because the pollution isn't in the city where it directly effects people

That may be true for "traditional" pollutants, but greenhouse gases (e.g., CO2) don't stay in any one place.

 

[bxr140]

Actually the solution to local charging is not adding more superchargers.

For sure its not the only solution, but I think it's always going to be the major part except perhaps in some unique areas. It's a self defeating position to restrict access to a supercharger (or worse, charge for access) so there's always going to be need for a massive density of SCs in places like the Bay Area and LA. It really is a 'if you can't beat em, join em' type of situation.

Certainly HPWCs help, but for that to be a sustainable, reliable solution especially as more and more vehicles hit the road, the majority of business and other popular places need banks of HPWCs. That, for obvious reasons, doesn't make sense for establishments that wish to cater to all EVs, not just teslas. Slow charging as a primary solution really only works in two places: work and home. Google is a great example of work charging, but they're all J1772.

The real solution to the problem is time. Beside the fact that time will naturally being more SCs, time will bring faster charging rates and higher battery capacities. And of course, more work charging options.

An interesting supplementary solution could be to figure out how to make hole charging attractive enough for [most of] those that abuse their local SC. I don't know what that looks like and I'm sure it's fraught with roadblocks, but it's basically the honey vs vinegar argument. Instead of souring SCs, figure out how to make home charging unavoidably lucrative.

 

[RogerHScott]

if 20+ owners in your area all come up with the same idea then that 30 min you leave your car to go shopping for groceries that you promised you would immediately move your car if any travelers arrive gets crowded. How would you know if you aren't waiting by your car? If you are going to local Supercharge you should stay with your car or leave your phone number on the dash letting people know to call you if they actually need the charge.

So we're first assuming that the number of super-chargeable Teslas in my area roughly doubles. Check.
Next we're assuming that 100% of them decide to locally supercharge. Check.
Let's be even more pessimistic and say that all 100% of them want to do this every day, not just occasionally.
capacity: ~12 reasonable charging hours / day * 8 stalls = 96 stall-hours/ day.
demand: 20 Teslas charges/day * 1 stall/Tesla * .5 hours/charge = 10 stall-hours/day
So that absurdly exaggerated worst-case scenario leads to a ~11% net occupancy of the local SC.
Is that really your worry here?

I said in an earlier post that I wouldn't locally supercharge unless there were at least two vacant stalls remaining afterward.
Given that the average occupancy I've observed at this SC is zero, and the peak is 1, I'm willing to dial back that obviously
reckless and inconsiderate threshold and promise to never use it if there are 3 or more cars there. Or are we still worried
about 8 or more Teslas randomly pulling up within the same 30 minutes window of time?

how would you determine if the people arriving truly need it and aren't locals trying to do the same thing you are. Would you quiz them and ask for ID to determine where they live or just leave without asking questions if all the spots were full and someone arrived.

See above, but hypothetically I would give them the benefit of the doubt. That you even raise the possibility of "quiz them and ask for ID" says some disturbing things about someone in this conversation...