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Supercharging from Sudbury to Winnipeg?

Discussion in 'Canada Supercharger locations' started by wayner, Apr 25, 2017.

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  1. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    I am working on plotting the location of potential SCs that would allow you to get from Sudbury to Winnipeg. What is the maximum distance that you could comfortably have between SCs? Would 240km be sufficient for a 75kWh car in the dead of winter in places where you regularly get -30C? Or is there another way to think about this?
     
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  2. jbcarioca

    jbcarioca Active Member

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    I was just asking myself the same question. I'd probably follow the Norwegian model and have one every 180km or so. Remember that, especially in such areas, one needs very healthy reserves in case of unexpected events. Heating will also be a big energy consumer, but unexpected weather would be my prime reason for reducing the interval. I wonder when Tesla will do that? I haven't done that trip for many years and I'm eager to do it again, but I will NOT drive ICE again.
     
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  3. sandpiper

    sandpiper Active Member

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    This.... absolutely. And I'm sure that's why it hasn't been done. There's a LOT of empty space between SS Marie and Thunder Bay. And most people who actually need to get to Thunder Bay... fly.
     
  4. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    I agree in that if it is over 400km then I will fly. But a lot of people seem to want to be able to drive their Tesla's "a mari usque ad mare". And once that is done they will want to go to the artic ocean as well.

    I am just doing this as an exercise to see how many SCs you would need. Almost 30 years ago I worked on installing the fibre optic line along Hwy 11 from North Bay to Thunder Bay and you can go almost 200km without a gas station.
     
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  5. doubeld

    doubeld Member

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    Ask Rolfe and Silke. FAQ

    Take the X75D, 90km/h, -20C, heat on and pulling a trailer at the maximum weight allowance against the wind in a rainstorm. That's the maximum you should put the Super Chargers apart.
     
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  6. rypalmer

    rypalmer Member

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    Nope! Not even close.

    Here's a data point from a road trip in March: Cornwall SC to Drummondville SC on March 10, 2017. 230km.

    I charged to 100% and drove with no heat or speed sacrifices, at a temperature that went from -10ºC to -20 pretty quick, with an average of -13.9ºC. Inside temperature was 22ºC. Average speed 105km/hr but I cruised at 120 most of the way I think. The roads were dry.

    My Model S 70D consumed 96% of the battery which at arriving at -20ºC left zero margin for error and is downright unsafe. Range charging in the first place took a lot of extra time.

    The next morning I drove the first 193km leg at -21ºC and it took 80% at 112km/hr.

    So, based on my experience, the ideal distance between Superchargers is closer to 120km. This would support things like towing and extreme weather, which is frankly pretty typical for many places in Canada.
     
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  7. rypalmer

    rypalmer Member

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    Yeah that's me. 4 trips from Toronto to PEI so far.
     
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  8. AudubonB

    AudubonB Mild-mannered Moderator Lord Vetinari*

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    Ouch.

    With all the respect that you're due, it does hurt me when I see comments like this - here's why:

    Yes, I already know that my home is remote. That it's 80mi/130km to the nearest village; over twice that to the nearest real town. In any direction.

    However, that hasn't stopped me from purchasing both a Model S and an X, and we've a Model 3 on order.

    For this discussion, then, please try to consider "Hmm: there may be Tesla owners in Thunder Bay. If not today, then in one or two or five years". Or Kenora, or Kirkland Lake, Rouyn, Sudbury....and a bunch of towns I'm less familiar with.

    And couch your consideration as to where SpCs might be appropriate based on such assumptions.

    Remember, even today we already have Teslas not just in Paxson, but in Talkeetna (both AK), and not just in Saskatoon, but also in Flin Flon and even Hay River NWT, for goodness sake.

    Thanks, all -
     
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  9. sandpiper

    sandpiper Active Member

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    I live in a fairly remote northern community as well and so I share the pain (admittedly to a lesser degree though). But - the reality is that the section from Thunder Bay to SS Marie is really tough - one of the toughest on the trans-Canada highway. You have 700 km of very little population, very rugged terrain, and really really nasty conditions in the winter. You'd need 3 superchargers to fully cover this section of highway - maybe two. And this is just not a section of highway that would ever see a lot of Tesla traffic.

    I'm not saying ti shouldn't be done. But when you have NO superchargers in the maritimes, this is not a #1 priority. This would be done as part of a Trans-Canada push. It's far more likely that we get a few L3s along this route sooner. Although none are presently planned, even as part of the Ontario government EV charging effort.
     
  10. AudubonB

    AudubonB Mild-mannered Moderator Lord Vetinari*

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    I couldn't agree more that the Maritimes need some TeslaLove!!!!!!!!
     
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  11. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    Ryan - I don't get how you come up with 120km when your experience seems to suggest that 180km is more than sufficient, even in very cold weather. And you were on major highways rather than a highway with a speed limit of, at best, 90km/h. And you have a low capacity battery that is lower than is current sold by Tesla.

    If we are going to insist that Tesla plan for the absolute worst case scenario then that makes it even less likely to get built as putting SCs every 120km will cost 50% more than putting them every 180km. But maybe Tesla doesn't want to run the risk of the bad publicity that would come if someone runs out of juice somewhere between Marathon and White River when it is -35C and a blizzard is taking place.

    By the way, the distance from Comber to Woodstock is 185km and Tesla isn't doing anything to shorten that section so presumably they think that is fine, at least for Southern Ontario.
     
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  12. doubeld

    doubeld Member

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    -10 to -20 isn't "very cold". That's just "cold". Plus, the roads were dry. If he was in rain/slush/snow, take off a few dozen km of range. What if he was driving an X? At that point, he wouldn't have made it. If he was pulling a small trailer? Definitely not.
    The base Model 3 might have similar range as his 70D, so even though that size isn't being sold currently, new models from Tesla might. (Or even other manufacturers if we're allowed to dream).
     
  13. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    It was below -20 and he had 20% left after 193km - "The next morning I drove the first 193km leg at -21ºC and it took 80% at 112km/hr."

    If I am Tesla and people are insisting that I place the SCs based on someone towing the most non-aerodynamic trailer when it is -40 so they have to be only 100km apart then I say F - It, we have better things to worry about.

    By the way, the distance between SCs in North Dakota on I-94 is around 100 miles (160km) in legs planned from Fargo-Jamestown-Bismarck-Dickinson. And I have to imagine that it is just is cold on that stretch as it is pretty much the same latitude. The longest distance seems to be 108 miles from Alexandria, MN to Fargo, ND. The only difference is that these stretches of Highway would be less remote than Northern Ontario with more options if something went wrong.

    With some of these conditions you guys are dreaming up many typical ICE vehicles wouldn't be able to make it while towing a trailer between gas stations on the Trans Canada. When I drove Hwy 11 between Longlac and Hearst (which is 210km) there were no gas stations open except for the summer.
     
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  14. Phillip L

    Phillip L Gas Passer

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    #14 Phillip L, Apr 25, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
    I think this route would be so pie-in-the-sky for Tesla to make, to being virtually zero chance of happening. Maybe, just maybe someday, Sudbury to Thunder Bay, because at least they're population centres, with the addition of Sault Ste Marie in the middle, but from Thunder Bay to Winnipeg, no way. There is virtually nothing between them (apologies to Kenora, etc). When Tesla sees fit to ignore the 1.8 million people in the Maritimes, not to mention another half million on Newfoundland as well, then I see no chance for the Northern route, especially since access to Winnipeg via a Supercharger route through the U.S. is being built. Then add in the province of Saskatchewan without Supercharger access, with their 1.1 million people, being out in the cold as well, and you have a lot of work for Tesla to do in coming years in Canada before the northern Ontario area will be serviced.

    Of course, if this is just a theoretical thought experiment, then my apologies.
     
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  15. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    So if you were to do this here is one way you could do it - it would take roughly 11 new SCs - the distance to the next SC in km is shown after the name of the town/city. The trickiest stretch seems to be the ones immediately west of Thunder Bay. I am not sure if there is much in Upsala but their does appear to be a motel that is open year-round.

    Sudbury 172
    Blind River 143
    Sault Ste Marie 139
    Agawa Bay 175
    White River 167
    Terrace Bay 105
    Nipigon 120
    Thunder Bay 144
    Upsala 183
    Dinorwic 166
    Kenora 165
    Ste Anne, MB 50
    Winnipeg
     
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  16. sandpiper

    sandpiper Active Member

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    For the SS Marie to Thunder Bay run, I would see three chargers being okay: Wawa (227 km) - Marathon (188 km) - Nipigon (187), leaving a short run of 120km to Thunder Bay. Yes, I know that means that cars with 70 or 60 kwhr batteries will be challenged in the winter. But, honestly, have you ever done that run in the middle of the winter? Yikes!

    I don't see it happening any time soon. More likely we will see some 50 kw L3s. And I wouldn't be surprised to see a few SCs south of Superior to Duluth.
     
  17. rypalmer

    rypalmer Member

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    ~120km apart is ideal for Canada, I think. Any trip where you need more than 70% of your summer range or 60% of your winter range on any given leg is a real bummer.

    70% summer range: 255km, skipping every second SC
    60% winter range @ -20ºC w/ clean roads: ~145km

    Toss in snowy or windy weather or towing into this, Superchargers should be 120-130km apart, IMHO.
     
  18. sandpiper

    sandpiper Active Member

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    It would be nice I suppose. But I think that Canadian drivers who need to travel distances in the winter should really be looking at a larger battery - and that's why I always raise a stink when our friends in California comment that they can't see why anybody would need more than 100kwh. I can't imagine having less than what my P85D has, and if there were a 130D available, that's what I'd buy - even if it meant sacrificing some of the other bells/whistles.
     
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  19. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    But why should the Canadian prairies or Northern Ontario be different than North Dakota where Tesla has decided that 160km is the right distance, and occasionally a touch longer?
     
  20. rypalmer

    rypalmer Member

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    Well at the moment it's a pretty tight balance between cash preservation and Supercharger network coverage. Some day it will be more about having an increasingly decentralized, broader, bigger network. Backfilling the larger gaps with additional stations is more interesting than doubling up stalls at existing locations, even if it costs a little more.
     
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