Supercharging Hypothetical #2 -- Abusive or not?

[BoerumHill]

Whoever gave me the reputation comment asking if Ernie drives a P85D owes me a new shirt, because I literally coughed coffee all over myself laughing so hard.

LOL

Me, totally a joke, glad you didn't take it the wrong way.

For the benefit of others:

"Does Ernie drive a P85D? Because I'm really trying not to align myself with those people and their ancillary issues."



ETA: I confused Ernie with Bert. But they're both borderline abusers worthy of receiving a letter.

 

[sorka]

Absolutely not. Superchargers are not for "topping off" from an 80% charge when you live nearby and have charging at home! If he was on his way out of town suddenly that's different, but not because "you never know" when you might need those extra few miles. There will never be enough superchargers to accommodate everyone with a Tesla who thinks it's ok to "top off" when he has plenty of range and charges at home.

Also with the taper, 80% is about where you would stop supercharging unless you need the extra range. It's not a starting point.

So I guess that's a point where we diverge in our opinion.

I think as long as Ernie has charged at home whenever he can and doesn't use the SC just to save a buck that the other scenarios will be so infrequent that it just won't matter.

I personally wouldn't go through the hassle of charging from 80 to 90% on the off chance I have an emergency but I wouldn't think it abusive if someone else chose to do that.

 

[Scotty]

I guess Elon's letter worked. I wonder if this poll had been posted a year ago, if anyone would has said anything but D. Especially given that the Superchargers are not in use by someone else when Ernie is charging. I would not go out of my way to charge any more than I'd go to a "free laundromat" if one existed...what a hassle when you can just wash your clothes at home.

I agree, and reiterate that this became the issue when EM made his comment. When the SC network was rolled out, there were no 'use or abuse' scenario's mentioned, or even alluded to.

I'd even suspect that EM was probably relieved when the MS sales accelerated (after Tesla made good on deliveries to the early adopters received their vehicles, and he decided to not sell to Google). Marketing, PR and the media helped.

No restrictions means no abuse. Restrictions or changes after the fact is what I'd expect from NADA dealers, not Tesla.

Scotty

 

[scaesare]

(I echo the comments not being fond of the "abusive" phrasing...)

My stance is: You should provide for your own charging needs to the extent you reasonably can.

Both "B" and "C" violate my stance. "A" likely would as well if he could easily make it home.

 

[caddieo]

Ernie has a bigger problem than which supercharging pattern may be abusive or not. He should not be letting his car get to 20% every third day before recharging. Apparently Ernie didn't read the owners manual which says several times, in large print, to keep the car plugged in when possible. He should plug into his 40A charging in his garage every night whether he needs it or not, and let the battery management system manage the battery.

Remember "A connected model S is a happy Model S". The cars used to be delivered with this reminder card inside, I don't know why they stopped doing it.

And RTFM.

^^^^^This. +1...... 'nuff said.

 

[davewill]

Ernie has a bigger problem than which supercharging pattern may be abusive or not. He should not be letting his car get to 20% every third day before recharging. Apparently Ernie didn't read the owners manual which says several times, in large print, to keep the car plugged in when possible. He should plug into his 40A charging in his garage every night whether he needs it or not, and let the battery management system manage the battery.

Remember "A connected model S is a happy Model S". The cars used to be delivered with this reminder card inside, I don't know why they stopped doing it.

And RTFM.

Yup. Dude should probably set his level down to 80% and definitely plug in every night. Then he'd have little incentive to supercharge locally.

 

[LetsGoFast]

FWIW, I voted that none of these scenarios are abusive. For me, the notion that the supercharger is never full or close to full permits Ernie to ethically charge any time he wishes. For him to have done something wrong or abusive, there has to be a party that is harmed. Tesla being required to pay for the electricity doesn't meet that burden for me. I feel like the point of establishing a charge for supercharging was to pay for Tesla's costs. Obviously, some people are going to cost more than the average and some are going to cost less.

If the supercharger was full, heck even if the supercharger was more than half full, I'd change my answer. If he was impacting other owners by preventing them from charging or by slowing down their charging, I'd say that his behavior is abusive (feel free to replace with your own pejoritive adjective). In that scenario, I'd vote that all of the scenarios are abusive.

 

[stopcrazypp]

(I echo the comments not being fond of the "abusive" phrasing...)

My stance is: You should provide for your own charging needs to the extent you reasonably can.

Both "B" and "C" violate my stance. "A" likely would as well if he could easily make it home.

I agree on the terminology. I would reserve "abusive" for those who don't charge at home even when they can ("C" is closest to this), but a lot of the scenarios presented above would fall into a gray area where it may not be a severe as "abusive," but not something that is perfectly in the clear also.

 

[LetsGoFast]

Yes, almost everyone would have said anything but D. We were around when superchargers were announced to facilitate long distance travel.

I just went back and re-read the letter that kicked off this whole tempest and was struck by this passage (emphasis mine):

The Supercharger Network's intent remains to expand and enhance your long distance travel while providing the flexibility for occasional needed use during local trips.

So, Tesla is taking a softer line than yours, saying that they intend the supercharger network to support occasional needed use for local trips -- not just long distance travel. Of course, defining "occasional" and "needed" is fairly clearly not something we all appear to agree on.

 

[cpa]

To further these scenarios, let's assume that Ernie makes semimonthly trips that are 150 miles (one way) from his home. There is a convenient charging station at his destination that can fill his battery easily overnight. Is is "abusive" if Ernie lets his battery SoC drop to 50% the day before he leaves and Supercharges for 15 minutes before leaving town (he stays at his car in case congestion appears.) How about on his return home? Is it OK to plug in at the Supercharger for 15-20 minutes before arriving home?

I feel that using a Supercharger to "top off" before and after a 300-mile round trip is fine.

 

[davewill]

To further these scenarios, let's assume that Ernie makes semimonthly trips that are 150 miles (one way) from his home. There is a convenient charging station at his destination that can fill his battery easily overnight. Is is "abusive" if Ernie lets his battery SoC drop to 50% the day before he leaves and Supercharges for 15 minutes before leaving town (he stays at his car in case congestion appears.) How about on his return home? Is it OK to plug in at the Supercharger for 15-20 minutes before arriving home?

I feel that using a Supercharger to "top off" before and after a 300-mile round trip is fine.

He's just doing it to save a few pennies? Not cool. If the top-up on the way home is because he thinks he might need the range, then no problem.

 

[DaveVa]

Ernie has a bigger problem than which supercharging pattern may be abusive or not. He should not be letting his car get to 20% every third day before recharging. Apparently Ernie didn't read the owners manual which says several times, in large print, to keep the car plugged in when possible. He should plug into his 40A charging in his garage every night whether he needs it or not, and let the battery management system manage the battery.

Remember "A connected model S is a happy Model S". The cars used to be delivered with this reminder card inside, I don't know why they stopped doing it.

And RTFM.

I think this is a little more complicated - While Tesla has recommended to plug in every night, there is a lot of data that says "number of charge cycles" contributes to battery degradation. I generally don't supercharge, but since I have a short commute, I only plug in when I get between 50-70% of charge avoiding a daily 10% charge cycle.

I think that charging 30% every three days is in the long term better than having 3 times the charge cycles at 10%. Would be interested if anyone has any hard data on what is best...

 

[scaesare]

I think this is a little more complicated - While Tesla has recommended to plug in every night, there is a lot of data that says "number of charge cycles" contributes to battery degradation. I generally don't supercharge, but since I have a short commute, I only plug in when I get between 50-70% of charge avoiding a daily 10% charge cycle.

I think that charging 30% every three days is in the long term better than having 3 times the charge cycles at 10%. Would be interested if anyone has any hard data on what is best...

Those typically are referred to as full charge cycles. One 30% cycle or three 10% cycles shoud have the same effect on the battery.

Consider regen.... it's potentially hundreds of < 1% charge cycles a day.

 

[sorka]

OK. Here's a real scenario. I drive to work once a week and stay in town two nights. It's 130 miles each way. I leave 85% charged and arrive 35% charged.

I've done all of the following:

1) Drive straight to work and arrive 35% charged. I have to wait until 3:00 PM to get a spot at work. When I do I can only charge 14 mph (blink level 2 which are free to employees). If an emergency calls me home, I have enough to make it back to Manteca with 5% to spare.

2) Stop in at Fremont which is 5 minutes from my work and charge up to about 65% which is enough to get to work and then if an emergency occurs, back home with about 10% to spare in case something happens before I'm able to charge at work from 3:00 PM until well into the evening.

3) Stop half way in Manteca when I'm at 60% and charge up to 80%. I get to work with 55% and have enough to get home in case of an emergency without having to stop and have 5% when I get home.

I've done all 3 but usually do #1.

However, is it bad for my battery to cycle it from 85 down to 35% weekly? Is it healthier to top off to 80% when I pass through Manteca? During the few times in the day that I've done this at Manteca during late morning, I've never seen another Model S there. I only see them at night.

In each scenario, I charged up to work to nearly the maximum daily. Not charging to 100% weekly because I think that would be bad for the battery even if it finishes an hour before I leave.

 

[TexasEV]

I think this is a little more complicated - While Tesla has recommended to plug in every night, there is a lot of data that says "number of charge cycles" contributes to battery degradation. I generally don't supercharge, but since I have a short commute, I only plug in when I get between 50-70% of charge avoiding a daily 10% charge cycle.

I think that charging 30% every three days is in the long term better than having 3 times the charge cycles at 10%. Would be interested if anyone has any hard data on what is best...

When Tesla says keep it plugged in when possible, it is saying that multiple small charges are better than fewer larger charges. Let the battery management system manage the battery. The number of charge cycles that contributes to battery degradation are full cycles, not the number of times a battery is charging.

 

[davewill]

OK. Here's a real scenario. I drive to work once a week and stay in town two nights. It's 130 miles each way. I leave 85% charged and arrive 35% charged.

I've done all of the following: ...

I'd avoid going down to 5%, maybe by charging to 90 or 95% instead of 85%, but otherwise I'd say that none of it matters very much. In your shoes, I would do whatever is the most convenient and comfortable. If the stop in the middle makes you feel better about your battery, do that. If saving time by going directly to the office is the best scenario for you, do that.

 

[TexasEV]

OK. Here's a real scenario. I drive to work once a week and stay in town two nights. It's 130 miles each way. I leave 85% charged and arrive 35% charged.

I've done all of the following:

1) Drive straight to work and arrive 35% charged. I have to wait until 3:00 PM to get a spot at work. When I do I can only charge 14 mph (blink level 2 which are free to employees). If an emergency calls me home, I have enough to make it back to Manteca with 5% to spare.

2) Stop in at Fremont which is 5 minutes from my work and charge up to about 65% which is enough to get to work and then if an emergency occurs, back home with about 10% to spare in case something happens before I'm able to charge at work from 3:00 PM until well into the evening.

3) Stop half way in Manteca when I'm at 60% and charge up to 80%. I get to work with 55% and have enough to get home in case of an emergency without having to stop and have 5% when I get home.

I've done all 3 but usually do #1.

However, is it bad for my battery to cycle it from 85 down to 35% weekly? Is it healthier to top off to 80% when I pass through Manteca? During the few times in the day that I've done this at Manteca during late morning, I've never seen another Model S there. I only see them at night.

In each scenario, I charged up to work to nearly the maximum daily. Not charging to 100% weekly because I think that would be bad for the battery even if it finishes an hour before I leave.

I would charge to 100% in that scenario and finish your charge an hour before you leave as you are doing. Then when you do #1 you're not cutting it so close. If you're really concerned about the 100% charge just before you leave, then charge to 95%. There is no reason to limit your charge to 85% when you are needing more range.

There is no problem at all cycling from 85% to 35% on your trip. You don't need to top off unless you are needing that range.

We're all overthinking this. Charge for what you need and as I have said elsewhere let the battery management system manage the battery.

 

[scaesare]

However, is it bad for my battery to cycle it from 85 down to 35% weekly? .

Nah. Evidence suggests your battery will be just fine doing this. FWIW I go from about 70-30% daily.

 

[Chris TX]

Superchargers are for longer distance trips. Avoiding your home charging solution just to get free juice from a Supercharger is abuse.

I once came across a guy that had a decent solar array at home and bragged about the money he got FROM the power company, but yet he frequently lets his Model S go down to 5% or so and charges up to 90% or so at the free CHAdeMO at the Nissan dealership near his house. That activity is the pure definition of charger abuse. It seems Ernie does similar stuff.

 

[roblab]

When Tesla says keep it plugged in when possible, it is saying that multiple small charges are better than fewer larger charges. Let the battery management system manage the battery. The number of charge cycles that contributes to battery degradation are full cycles, not the number of times a battery is charging.

So this is saying, sort of sideways, that mileage is directly related to battery degradation. Yet the studies I have seen show that battery degradation is related to TIME, not mileage, not "charge cycles".

I have 80,000 miles on my 3 year old Model S. It has about 8% degradation, the same as most other Model Ses this old.

It also seems apparent that it is the hot charges, ie: going to 100% and letting it sit, or driving 80 on the freeway on a hot day and pulling into a supercharger for a full charge, that cause degradation. Is that wrong?

I charge my battery at night at about 30 amps. I don't care how many cycles I have made (which correspond to 265 miles more or less for 85 kWh). I am not sure at all that it is charge cycles, but outright abuse. Batteries like to be "room temp". Outside of that, you have degradation. Even if Tesla tries to AC or heat the battery pack, I feel there are times that the conditioning can't keep up.