Supercharging letter from Tesla 8-13-2015

[Panu]

Since Supercharging is standard on all their cars now, why would you deal with the maintenance headaches of a 10 or 15 year old car (not to mention forgoing the technical advances that have occurred in the intervening time)?

Because new cars from some point on probabaly will not have free supercharging forever.

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In the video I mentioned earlier, supercharging comes up at 17:35. The sales advisor talks about a contract.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S4HqTxOUD0#t=17m35s

Basically he is just saying "I don't know" which seems to be quite often the case with Tesla employees.

 

[ohmman]

Since Supercharging is standard on all their cars now, why would you deal with the maintenance headaches of a 10 or 15 year old car (not to mention forgoing the technical advances that have occurred in the intervening time)?

I think the latter point is the more important of the two. My view is that the automobile environment in 10-15 years time will be drastically different than it is today. To me, this means a historically high depreciation rate on not just MS, but on all currently equipped vehicles. I'm comfortable with it because I'm buying what gives me value today, not what might give me value in the future. However, I don't think the Supercharger situation in 10-15 years is going to be a concern for Tesla because, like omarsultan, I don't think the demand will be there for the vehicles that offer this benefit.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I hope this thread and the sister thread over on the Tesla Motors site finally convinces Elon to burn some headcount on an actual corp comm team. Instead, they have taken a position that I think the vast majority of owners would support (discouraging locals from apparently hogging SCs) and handled it a way that needlessly pisses off customers and creates FUD for current owners, potential buyers and detractors, and undermining one of the key selling points of Tesla. The self-inflicted wound was unnecessary.

Tesla has a VP of Communications. Send him an email. His name is Ricardo Reyes. He is in charge of handling owner communications. Seems fair to put this on his doorstep.

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Or Tesla could say free supercharging doesn't transfer just like the service plan and extended warranty don't transfer.

The extended warranty DOES transfer to a subsequent owner.

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Unlimited supercharging was what was promoted, and never were restrictions mentioned.

Are you sure about that? I don't recall Tesla ever offering unlimited Supercharging. What they offered was free Supercharging.

 

[tinm]

Tesla has a VP of Communications. Send him an email. His name is Ricardo Reyes. He is in charge of handling owner communications. Seems fair to put this on his doorstep.

Do we know for certain he's "in charge of handling owner communications"? I know the Bloomberg article that broke the news he was leaving Square and returning to Tesla for a second run mentioned he'd oversee PR, customer communications, and Tesla's online presence, but it seems kind of odd to me. Did Reyes say he had the customer-facing role as well, when speaking at TMC Connect last month? Typically a Vice President for Corporate Communications role is responsible for public relations which means handling media communications -- strategizing on, managing, and delivering on-brand message to the media who in turn get it out to the public. Seems unusual to me for such a role to ALSO be dealing with customers. Then again, Tesla is an unusual company.

However as I'd said umpteen times, Tesla's got a lousy batting average when it comes to communicating with its customers, imho. And I've not seen any evidence that Reyes is doing any better than other heads of comms at Tesla.

I see a big disconnect between the user experience / UI / design people in Tesla, who are off in their own lofty ivory tower, and the communications team. So much of the experience of owning this space-age futuristic computer-car depends, especially given its frequent changing (e.g. software updates, new features/upgrades) on the customer keeping on top of things in order not to miss something that might be and is occasionally actually important.

 

[bonnie]

... the user experience / UI / design people in Tesla, who are off in their own lofty ivory tower

I know for a fact that this statement is not true. There are a large number of owners that they actively engage with, some of the team are owners themselves.

 

[Matteo]

Sometimes Tesla's advertisement is overly optimistic and sounds better than what they are actually offering. For example the order page says "8 year, infinite mile battery warranty". "Infinite miles" sounds great. It sounds like you can drive as much as you want and not worry about the battery for 8 years. In reality, the warranty doesn't cover degradation. If the battery degrades a lot because of high mileage, that is not covered under the warranty. Technically if the car moves, the battery is fine. The warranty covers only failure. In fact, the warranty specifically says it doesn't cover degradation. Therefore I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla says they meant free but not unlimited or free but fair use applies or face slow speeds.

 

[mspohr]

Well, Tesla promised "free supercharging for life", they did not promise "free and unlimited supercharging for life". Not wanting to stir up a hornet's nest, but that could be an important distinction that we'll find out about when Tesla sends a 2nd, followup email in a few weeks or months...

Will it always be free?

Yes, Superchargers will be free to use for Supercharging-enabled vehicles for the life of Model S.
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Customers are free to use the network as much as they like.

 

[Sasmania]

I don't know if anyone else mentioned this, but won't a lot of these issues work themselves out? In other words if some locals are "abusing" the network, at some point the hassle of waiting would drive those to home charge more and SC less wouldn't it? At least it would me...

Another point to make as I'm now at SC #107 on my 25,000 mile road trip... 90% of the chargers are totally empty when I arrive, and I may see 1 other car if I'm lucky. Of course, I haven't hit California yet... but that's what it's like everywhere else...

 

[tinm]

Bonnie I was speaking figuratively not literally. I know some of the UI people like Brennan and have had good conversations w/ em.

My point is that I am not aware of a strong integration between the car UI people and Reyes' team if in fact the latter owns customer communications (a big chunk of which is management of customer expectations from "just browsing, thanks" to "I'd like to order" to configuring the car in the Design Studio, to placing the order, to waiting for the delivery, to delivery, to ongoing ownership).

I would love to see evidence of deep interconnections between those two silos. I so far haven't seen much, nor do I have much evidence such exists based on personal S ownership experience, so I will reluctantly continue believing they are indeed silos.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Will it always be free?

Yes, Superchargers will be free to use for Supercharging-enabled vehicles for the life of Model S.
-----
Customers are free to use the network as much as they like.

I've addressed this specific point probably the 10th time already across various threads.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-2015/page26?p=1108889&viewfull=1#post1108889

The first line says free, it does not say unlimited, so it does not address the point.

The second line is taken out of context. Here's the full quote:
"How often can I Supercharge, is it bad for my battery?
Supercharging does not alter the new vehicle warranty. Customers are free to use the network as much as they like."

All that says is there is no limit to using the network in terms of your battery warranty. This is as opposed to the 2011 Nissan Leaf battery warranty where it says you can't quick charge more than once per day.

 

[andrewket]

When I ordered my car In June 2014 there was no discussion about Supercharging being for long distance travel. In fact, my DS made it a point that I could charge for free anytime at the Supercharger in Darien CT as often as I'd like.

Now I fully appreciate the need to allow travelers priority but I have never seen more that two Teslas at this site ( with 4 stalls).

I charge every night at home but my weekend commute is from home to Stamford, CT to Mystic CT to home. My marina in Mystic does not have charging and I sometimes need charging in Milford CT to make it home with a small buffer.

I do this just about every weekend so I am using local superchargers and will continue to do so.

Tesla can't just change the rules.

Of course, I say all this and I have NOT received a letter. I hope I don't. Love the car and the supercharger network. 25k miles in 10 months.

This is not local supercharging. If you need it to reach your destination (or even round-trip), go for it. The issue is with people who use the SCs despite having charging facilities at home for their daily needs, or don't bother installing an EVSE because they think charging all the time at a supercharger is ok.

I realize Tesla's communication on this topic has been terrible. But I implore everyone to think of others and the future of the network. I leave contact info on my dash every time I'm at a charger when there is a chance charging may complete before I return. If everyone showed this level of courtesy, the network will scale much further and ultimately reduce our costs. It may be you next time on a road trip with the kids in the back, wanting to get in and out as fast as you can and back on the road.

 

[andrewket]

I don't know if anyone else mentioned this, but won't a lot of these issues work themselves out? In other words if some locals are "abusing" the network, at some point the hassle of waiting would drive those to home charge more and SC less wouldn't it? At least it would me...

Another point to make as I'm now at SC #107 on my 25,000 mile road trip... 90% of the chargers are totally empty when I arrive, and I may see 1 other car if I'm lucky. Of course, I haven't hit California yet... but that's what it's like everywhere else...

California is a mess, but there is contention elsewhere. Have you been through Newark, DE or Chicago yet? 25k mile road trip? Do you have a blog somewhere? I've done one 3500 mile and one 4500 mile trip, but 25k is a different class altogether.

 

[Johan]

I've addressed this specific point probably the 10th time already across various threads.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-2015/page26?p=1108889&viewfull=1#post1108889

The first line says free, it does not say unlimited, so it does not address the point.

The second line is taken out of context. Here's the full quote:
"How often can I Supercharge, is it bad for my battery?
Supercharging does not alter the new vehicle warranty. Customers are free to use the network as much as they like."

All that says is there is no limit to using the network in terms of your battery warranty. This is as opposed to the 2011 Nissan Leaf battery warranty where it says you can't quick charge more than once per day.

I thought your point was: It's free [within normal limits]
As opposed to: It's free and unlimited [charge however much you like. But do Know all that driving and charging will eventually degrade your battery, something our unlimited miles guarantee doesn't cover.]

 

[Canuck]

Are you sure about that? I don't recall Tesla ever offering unlimited Supercharging. What they offered was free Supercharging.

It says "unlimited" here:

But the ad itself says "For long distance travel" which is key. It's not for everyday use.

I got the image above from here:

Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving Notes - Page 33

 

[omarsultan]

Not everyone is a 1%er (5%er, 10%er, whatever).

That's not what I meant. Every car has a point where it no longer cost effective to maintain it. While I have no doubt the drivetrain will last forever, the other mechanical bits (pumps, compressors, suspension, wheels, steering, windows, door handles, etc) as well things like the MCU have a designed duty cycle and will start failing eventually. Matteo's example was that used Tesla's would go into fleet service (Taxi, Uber) where these problems and costs would get exacerbated. Businesses like predicable costs, and maintaining an aging fleet and having to set aside a significant reserve for maintenance is not a winning strategy.

 

[jerry33]

I thought your point was: It's free [within normal limits]
As opposed to: It's free and unlimited [charge however much you like. But do Know all that driving and charging will eventually degrade your battery, something our unlimited miles guarantee doesn't cover.]

Well, if you drive an ICE car a lot, you'll eventually need an engine rebuild which won't be covered either, and may not perform as well after the rebuild, depending upon the skill of the rebuilder and the state of the engine before the rebuild. A replacement battery in a Tesla is likely to be as good as or better than the original. I don't believe this is an issue, but we'll know in ten or so years.

 

[Matteo]

Matteo's example was that used Tesla's would go into fleet service (Taxi, Uber) where these problems and costs would get exacerbated.

Teslas are already used for UBER and taxis and some of those use superchargers. Also I expect much sooner than 15 years. I expect free supercharging to end in 2018 when Model 3 goes into full production. If MS and X had free supercharging and Model 3 didn't then it would make Model 3 look second class. It would make Tesla look like they care more for the rich. Elon wouldn't like that idea. In 2018 used Model S cars that still have free supercharging will be popular and they wont be so old.

 

[Johan]

Well, if you drive an ICE car a lot, you'll eventually need an engine rebuild which won't be covered either, and may not perform as well after the rebuild, depending upon the skill of the rebuilder and the state of the engine before the rebuild. A replacement battery in a Tesla is likely to be as good as or better than the original. I don't believe this is an issue, but we'll know in ten or so years.

This I agree with. But stills in people's minds [free] and [free and unlimited] are two different concepts. Which one has Tesla been communicating? The latter.

 

[stopcrazypp]

It says "unlimited" here:

View attachment 90564

But the ad itself says "For long distance travel" which is key. It's not for everyday use.

I got the image above from here:

Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving Notes - Page 33

You already noted the caveat that was added "for long distance charging". Also that is a slide at a presentation to some kind of energy company meeting, not in the ads. No where in the advertising does it headline "unlimited" as a feature. I believe someone also dug up a reference to unlimited in some software update notes, but other than that, unlimited is practically never referenced.

That's why I have been saying the oft repeated AT&T example does not apply to Tesla. AT&T advertised "unlimited" data in big bold letters for their data plan. Tesla never did the same, only the "free" part. That's why I say that Tesla is unlikely to be able to start charging money for supercharger usage, but they can do throttling if necessary (not that I want them to).

 

[smac]

After reading all this thread, and trying to be somewhat constructive, we seem to be going round in circles. So being completely blunt:

My take is Tesla or Ego Musk need to man up or shut up.

Publicly state a policy on what is or isn't acceptable. What defines long distance? What defines abuse? (constant commuting beyond range, shift operated taxi service, cross continental trips where before a sane person would have flown, topping off on "occasion" for contingency, holding of a week of home charging because you are planning on a mall trip at the weekend, 51/49 SpC/Home, Condo Dwellers, 25 SpC sessions per year....)

Now all of these seem fine with most as not "abuse" but we have zero guidance from the very company determining the very provision of service.

Come on TM just tell us!!! This "soft" education message is frankly weak management of a situation of your own making.


If Tesla aren't prepared to do this they should simply stop warning people they aren't using the system as intended!!