Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
This is likely what they've communicated in written text. Emotionally and in talks they've communicated the unlimited part a lot.
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This is likely what they've communicated in written text. Emotionally and in talks they've communicated the unlimited part a lot.
We do not know that, in fact Tesla's moves have been in the opposite direction. Its gone from an option on some models to baked into all models, including CPO. I would expect the MX to follow the same approach, although I might expect the M3 to go back to offering it as a $2K option to help hit the $35K price point.
It might be helpful to step back and ask why they would stop offering Supercharging as a baked in option considering it helps close business. I can think of two reasons:
1) It is costing too much: this does not seem to be the case, in their own words, the costs are not material (see my quote from the latest 10Q up-thread). I suggest that this is turning out like the powertrain warranty, where, once they had some real world data they felt comfortable rolling out the 8-year, unlimited mile warranty. I am sure $2K was an informed guesstimate, but now, with ~3years of operational data, they have a better handle on actual usage and how well their model is built.
2) They are worried about crowding: There might be something to this, at least as a short term problem. Again from the 10Q, they say "We plan to continue investing in our Supercharger network for the foreseeable future." They note that ~5% of their capital outlays over the next 12 months are for Supercharger expansion, which is not much, given everything else they are doing (Gigafactory, ramping up for MX and M3 production, etc) and they will increase the network capacity by 50% this year. To me, this means that expanding the Supercharger network is not particularly capital intensive, but as we have seen, construction does take time. Interestingly, they state the book value of the 480 global locations is $139M--I am not sure if that includes anything beyond the capital cost (and maybe depreciation) of the equipment.
At the end of the day, its a business decision--as long the the incremental revenue (i.e. additional car sales) generated by Supercharging is greater than the associated program costs, I don't see them messing with it.
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Working on it...
We know because JB Straubel said so. Watch from 13:25
The Future of Transportation t=13m25s
Below is a projection based on modest yearly increases. According to that we will hit 1 million Teslas in 2020. I said 2018, not too far.
| year | production that year | running total |
| 2012 | 26,500 | 26,500 |
| 2013 | 22,442 | 48,942 |
| 2014 | 31,655 | 80,597 |
| 2015 | 51,000 | 131,597 |
| 2016 | 86,500 | 218,097 |
| 2017 | 128,250 | 346,347 |
| 2018 | 192,375 | 538,722 |
| 2019 | 288,563 | 827,285 |
| 2020 | 432,844 | 1,260,128 |
All I know is that in the articles I've read, they wrote that he would be responsible for customer communications.
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That's not true. You can have degradation due to one or more failed modules, and that would be covered under the battery warranty.
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Your quote is disingenuous because you took the last line out of context. In fact, that line does not even appear under this question/topic. Now I question your credibility.
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The above is a Powerpoint slide from a presentation by JB Straubel. Hardly a customer-facing advertisement, and not something that would really set policy.
Bill and Nigel are both quoted in this article about Tesla's recent email. And, Ricardo Reyes declined to comment.
Tesla note irks some Model S owners
mspohr
Well-Known Member
I think this is the problem. Many people have interpreted the web site and statements by management to mean "free unlimited" but now we have a letter which seems to imply "not unlimited" but does not give any rules or guidelines. A lot of people are confused.
If Tesla is trying to communicate "not unlimited" then they should issue some clear, simple guidelines (and also try to reconcile these with their prior statements which stated "free unlimited").
If they are just trying to promote good etiquette (don't hog the SC, share with others, etc.) that is one thing. If they are trying to walk back their prior "free unlimited" statements then a lot of people may be upset and may feel they have a contract for "free unlimited"... get out the popcorn.
Explain that to Kevin Sharpe, the Roadster owner from the UK. His lawyer asked Tesla to provide detailed data and the data Tesla gave them shows he has a faulty brick that was misbehaving before he took delivery of his new car. Details. News article. You can contact him if you want to know more. Let's not hijack this topic.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
“The company is passionate and the customers are passionate, and sometimes that’s a double-edged sword.”
That's a great quote from Nigel in the article.
For who's benefit?
Bonnie and Nigel are big boys and girls. They are capable of managing their own message and perception.
The other members here are smart enough to have managed to join ths forum, and are assumed to able to draw their own conclusions regarding other posters.
The mods are selected for their abilities to manage the issues and personalities here... they don't need to have such pointed out to them.
If it's an altruistic motive, why not a PM directly to those you are concerned with rather than posting your musings in a thread where that's not on topic... unless it's to shape opinion about those folks?
Not only is it unwarranted, it's inappropriate for the forum & topics at hand.
(And yes, I realize this is a public response. Had the comments regarding other forum members not been public to start this, my response would have been PM)
roblab
Active Member
I guess some people don't get it.
I have encountered people who will push in line at a bank or other venue, and everyone in line gets ticked off, but it's not expressly forbidden, so what's the complaint?
I know there are people who will push the envelope in charging etiquette, by sitting at a charger while it fills up to 100% (hard on the battery) while eating at a restaurant, or using the SC because it's "only 5 miles from my house, and it's free!," or other boorish behavior, and these same people feel it is wrong for Tesla to remind us all to be kind and thoughtful.
Sure, it's not what everyone has been taught. Sure, it might be nice to leave your phone number on the dash, but I don't want to be bothered. Sure, I can use it all I want, until everyone gets irritated and supercharging gets to be an issue.
Please, folks. Be kind. And thoughtful. Don't push and shove and take advantage.
Thanks.
The problem is: Tesla isn't singling out queue-cutters or people who park at Superchargers - or at least not just them. They have an (increasingly) wide net of "frequent local Supercharging" that seems to include far more than people who hog the charger down the road. They also seem to target people whose local Supercharger is actually quite a bit away and is used in moments when most of the chargers are empty, thus hindering nobody.
If it is about the cost of the electricity for Tesla, they should just say so and limit accordingly (grandfather where policy changes for existing not possible). All this talk about people cutting lines and parking at Superchargers means nothing if it actually isn't the problem. How is that guy charging at a multiple free stalls Supercharger a problem? Unless the problem is the cost of electricity for Tesla.
deonb
Active Member
How very 'Scott Meyers' of you...
But nowadays you should utter 'const auto&' in that context.
scole04
Member
My issue is that I have many young friends that have bought the tesla and are not homeowners. Condo boards have not been allowing the installation of charge stations. When I've taken my friends to tesla they explained the situation and people at the stores said it was fine. They wanted the sale. Now we have a problem.
Teslas letter should have pointed to a specific issue like cost or overcrowding. After spending the kind of money some of us have I think we deserve and can handle knowing the reason.
If overcrowding is an issue and tesla doesn't want to put multiple superchargers in a small area then they can mark certain superchargers and limit use reasonably at only those. It is ridiculous though to throttle at every supercharger if this is the issue.
If money is the issue I wouldn't mind if tesla just was honest and came up with the real price for supercharging as what we paid isn't enough. Every telecommunications company out there is tiering there services and tesla might have to do the same if its reasonable. Some believe that we are grandfathered in but if the price is reasonable I wouldn't mind.
Hope tesla handles this right. My condo friends now feel weird supercharging period even though we paid a fee for it.
Teslas letter should have pointed to a specific issue like cost or overcrowding. After spending the kind of money some of us have I think we deserve and can handle knowing the reason.
If overcrowding is an issue and tesla doesn't want to put multiple superchargers in a small area then they can mark certain superchargers and limit use reasonably at only those. It is ridiculous though to throttle at every supercharger if this is the issue.
If money is the issue I wouldn't mind if tesla just was honest and came up with the real price for supercharging as what we paid isn't enough. Every telecommunications company out there is tiering there services and tesla might have to do the same if its reasonable. Some believe that we are grandfathered in but if the price is reasonable I wouldn't mind.
Hope tesla handles this right. My condo friends now feel weird supercharging period even though we paid a fee for it.
I agree one of the biggest issues with Supercharger marketing has been the pitch of Tesla sales people being very liberal compared to how Tesla now words their message. I'm sure they have now been instructed to pitch differently, but the problem remains with existing purchasers - and of course the question what does this mean for Tesla's policy on condo-dweller rich metropolitan areas where local Supercharging has been previously accepted and even marketed.
A clear policy statement from Tesla, with clear limits set, would do well to alleviate this uncertainty. Whether or not people need to be grandfathered in is another conversation, of course, but in any case going forward it would help with these feelings of uncertainty.
This is not unique to supercharger marketing. On Tesla website the Model S page, order page and supercharger pages have lots statements that give a different impression. These are related to how autopilot lane change will work, what autopilot features are available now, what the range of Model S is, what the supercharge times are, what horsepower the car has, how much the car costs, what battery warranty the car has, ... All of these have statements that give different impressions than what it actually is. Some of these will cause disappointments, some will cause more money, some will cause accidents. Let's just say, Tesla has great opportunities for improvement regarding information on their website.
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Amazingly, all of this gets fixed with a fee for use at Superchargers for FUTURE OWNERS:
1) $X token fee to plug in
2) $X per minute (per kWh is not legal everywhere for non electric utility)
3) $XXX blocking spot, whether plugged in or not, but not charging, with 10 minute window
4) $XXXX towing fee and storage
5) $XX administration fee because you're a pain in the ass
Now this problem just became a revenue source. Letters sent will be to ENCOURAGE MORE use of the Superchargers! There can be Time Of Use incentives (charge at midnight to 6am for half price!), surcharges for truly busy times / places to relieve congestion (Friday night / Sunday night at "cross road" sites, major event locations, etc).
The Superchargers won't be full of top-off-free-loaders, overnighters, general inconsiderates dopeishly blocking spots when not charging.
Existing folks are grandfathered, but the "rules" are clarified:
1) Blocking a spot can get you towed, and fees assessed. Superchargers are not parking spots
2) Please help the system by charging at home, if possible.
3) If you don't have at home charging, please contact us to help find a way to make that possible!
4) Commercial operations (Uber, taxi, limo, livery) are handled in whatever "new" way they deem fit
1) $X token fee to plug in
2) $X per minute (per kWh is not legal everywhere for non electric utility)
3) $XXX blocking spot, whether plugged in or not, but not charging, with 10 minute window
4) $XXXX towing fee and storage
5) $XX administration fee because you're a pain in the ass
Now this problem just became a revenue source. Letters sent will be to ENCOURAGE MORE use of the Superchargers! There can be Time Of Use incentives (charge at midnight to 6am for half price!), surcharges for truly busy times / places to relieve congestion (Friday night / Sunday night at "cross road" sites, major event locations, etc).
The Superchargers won't be full of top-off-free-loaders, overnighters, general inconsiderates dopeishly blocking spots when not charging.
Existing folks are grandfathered, but the "rules" are clarified:
1) Blocking a spot can get you towed, and fees assessed. Superchargers are not parking spots
2) Please help the system by charging at home, if possible.
3) If you don't have at home charging, please contact us to help find a way to make that possible!
4) Commercial operations (Uber, taxi, limo, livery) are handled in whatever "new" way they deem fit
roblab
Active Member
I think they are concerned when they have a hundred times as many cars on the road. Once someone gets it in their head that the supercharger is their own private supply, and I have more right to charge here even if I only live 5 miles away, and 4 people are waiting for long distance charging, someone is bound to get ugly. Or uglier. I am waiting for one owner to key another owner's car that has been sitting at a charger over an hour with the owner nowhere in sight. There will be words.
And no one wants to leave a cell number on the dash, which would help. Or some other information. Toyota RAV4EVs used to have a placard for the dash that would state how much charge needed, and when started, so a new arrival could guess when the car might be done. For some reason the new drivers seem to think that is an invasion of privacy, or else they just can't be bothered.
The letter may not have been the best idea, many other ways it could have been done, but this opens communication.
The folks who are truly a problem won't be swayed by suggesting that they are any of the above. I find in life that these of life long methods, and unlikely to significantly change without a big disincentive. Money, even a quite modest amount, would likely correct 80% of the problem.
I've never needed an engine rebuild on any car I've owned. I keep cars an average of over 10 years. I just sold my Lexus SC400 last year with 334K miles on it. At 300K miles, I scoped the cylinders with my fiber optic borescope. All the original honing cross hatches were still visible with no scoring. Compression was 174 to 175 psi on all 8 cylinders with only a 1 psi variance. The engine had never been repaired. Others have gotten over 600K miles. It's rare for car trouble these days to related to engines needing a rebuild. Of course there are notable exceptions with certain German cars that have self destructing motors like the M3, M5, and Cyan Turbo.
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I like all of these ideas and would even support some of these fees now for existing Model S owners like a blocked stall per minute fee starting 5 minutes after you've finished charging if you don't move by then.
Krugerrand
Meow
There is no problem (unless you're someone bound and determined to make a problem). A fantastic post from roblab imploring people to be kind and considerate to others and a little less self-centered, and all those other things we're suppose to try and achieve in life to be better, and you see a problem. Rather than just take what he said at face value, you twisted his words and intent so you could have 'a problem' to chew on for infinity. Here's a set of thumbs up for your continued ability to add fuel to a fire that didn't need more.
For those who got the letter: if the shoe doesn't fit, then stop trying to jam it on your foot. Push the little trash can button and go pick something meaningful to be all offended about.
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Yes, the communication some people keep complaining about that Tesla doesn't do, and now that Tesla does it, let's complain about how they did it. After that we'll find some other facet of Tesla communication to complain about because that's what we do best.
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