Supercharging Nightmare Begins

[apsen]

here's what a quick google finds:
Service voltage drop.
No longer cuts down to 30 amps... delayed start...
Voltage Sag Effects on MS Charging
How much of a voltage drop is ok?
Home AC interrupts charging - Any Solutions? - CAUSE RESOLVED | Tesla

there are many more...

No idea about the minimum amperage in the car, should go to at least 12A since that's what people use on those 120V outlets.

The very first link: the utility company fixed it by replacing wiring from transformer to the house. That is not helping your point. Quite the opposite - it helps my point. Should I bother reading further?

PS. Fifth link even says it in the subject.

 

[apsen]

there happens to be the perfect post about just this situation
Lights flicker when I finish charging off HPWC@80a

also FYI: lots of non-electric heaters, in fact they are super widely popular for many reasons + utilities often pay you great money to upgrade to natural gas from electricity.

Lol, whose point are you trying to prove? Yours or mine? All the examples point that you should have the utility fix their problems and not to sell your car.

 

[verygreen]

Lol, whose point are you trying to prove? Yours or mine? All the examples point that you should have the utility fix their problems and not to sell your car.

The point was "sometimes problems exist on the supply side" and while some people got utility to fix that, not everybody was so lucky.

 

[apsen]

The point was "sometimes problems exist on the supply side" and while some people got utility to fix that, not everybody was so lucky.

Right, the chance of that being such a big problem as to make EV completely unusable are so remote that it makes very hard to believe the original poster. Also the original poster haven't provided any indication any effort was spent trying to remedy the situation.

 

[verygreen]

@SabrToothSqrl Hey, did you get your utility to fix your feed, I wonder?

 

[apsen]

The point was "sometimes problems exist on the supply side" and while some people got utility to fix that, not everybody was so lucky.

I probably also should point out that I never said that that situation is impossible but merely that it is hard to believe.

And yes every single point is not that incredibly rare that I would have discounted it outright though they are quite rare on its own but the combination of all of them makes it very unbelievable:

1. He should be driving over 200 miles daily average including weekends. More if he doesn't live in cold region.
2. He should be spending on average 16 hours outside of his home every day including weekends.
3. The closest supercharger has to be completely full any time he has the opportunity to charge.
4. During his over 200 miles of daily driving he never comes within reasonable distance of supercharger with available stalls or destination charger.
5. He has problem with his electric service and his utility is not willing to fix it no matter the effort to have them do it even if it means not selling over 80 kWh of electricity daily.
6. His house has a lot of shading that makes solar/power wall installation impossible. Heck, just installing power wall without solar could make this work by spreading electricity demand over 24 hour period instead of 8 hour period.
7. I'm sure I've missed a few more.


Some analysis on the combination of above factors that are beyond simple multiplication of probabilities:

1. Just reconciling the points 1 and 3 together is hard - which areas of the US have cold climate and severe shortage of supercharges? The area affected by point 3 that I'm aware is California and that one doesn't have cold climate so that makes it much less probably than just plain combination of the two.
2. Due to point 3 he must be living in quite densely populated area that should have multiple super/destination chargers within that distance and that makes point 4 is much less likely.


Additional note regarding point 5:

Utilities around here are actually pushing the customers to buy EVs. For example my utility were offering $10k(!) rebate on the Nissan Leaf some time ago and there was another offer regarding electric BMW though I don't remember what exactly it was. And that is on top of federal and state incentives.

Do I need to say any more?

PS. Why is this website crashing so often?

 

[Merrill]

I thought it was just my internet connection, seem to be having problems getting into to TMC lately.

 

[verygreen]

I probably also should point out that I never said that that situation is impossible but merely that it is hard to believe.

And yes every single point is not that incredibly rare that I would have discounted it outright though they are quite rare on its own but the combination of all of them makes it very unbelievable:

1. He should be driving over 200 miles daily average including weekends. More if he doesn't live in cold region.
2. He should be spending on average 16 hours outside of his home every day including weekends.
3. The closest supercharger has to be completely full any time he has the opportunity to charge.
4. During his over 200 miles of daily driving he never comes within reasonable distance of supercharger with available stalls or destination charger.
5. He has problem with his electric service and his utility is not willing to fix it no matter the effort to have them do it even if it means not selling over 80 kWh of electricity daily.
6. His house has a lot of shading that makes solar/power wall installation impossible. Heck, just installing power wall without solar could make this work by spreading electricity demand over 24 hour period instead of 8 hour period.
7. I'm sure I've missed a few more.


Some analysis on the combination of above factors that are beyond simple multiplication of probabilities:

1. Just reconciling the points 1 and 3 together is hard - which areas of the US have cold climate and severe shortage of supercharges? The area affected by point 3 that I'm aware is California and that one doesn't have cold climate so that makes it much less probably than just plain combination of the two.
2. Due to point 3 he must be living in quite densely populated area that should have multiple super/destination chargers within that distance and that makes point 4 is much less likely.


Additional note regarding point 5:

Utilities around here are actually pushing the customers to buy EVs. For example my utility were offering $10k(!) rebate on the Nissan Leaf some time ago and there was another offer regarding electric BMW though I don't remember what exactly it was. And that is on top of federal and state incentives.

Do I need to say any more?

Quite a list you have there, not sure where it's from and how is it related. Regarding the item number 6 - you know solar and battery storage (power wall production is a separate matter, I think they were stopped being made recently and not all that many were actually produced) are kind of expensive, esp. the labor part of it. Last time I priced it there was exactly zero sense to do that setup. When people balk at dropping $3k into a HPWC install, what makes you think they would like dropping $10k+ into a powerwall one?

Not all utilities want you increase electricity consumption either. Like I said earlier, around here they will pay you to convert from electric to natural gas appliances.

Also not everybody has a supercharger nearby I am sure (and for those that do, how keen are you to spend 1+ hour every day to "refill"? (we'll discount people that live across the street from their supercharger so the trip time is 0 since there could not be many of those))

Driving by a supercharged during the day might not help if he does not have time for a stop.

All in all different people have different circumstances so I am sure there are people that cannot make it work. With hundreds of thousands of Tesla owners in US alone, whatever fringe case you can come up with we probably can find an owner (or former owner) that matches the criteria

 

[apsen]

I know that people tend not to read the entire emails/post and reply based on some assumption they got from one or two sentences they have read and assume they already know what it is about. Have been guilty of that myself on occasion even though I'm aware of the problem and the consequences. But to this extent is bordering on being ridiculous.

<the remainder of this rant has been removed as it probably will be taken in inflammatory sense and will do nothing to promote attentive reading >

Quite a list you have there, not sure where it's from and how is it related.

Right, as I said you need to follow the conversation from the beginning to see how it is related.

Regarding the item number 6 - you know solar and battery storage (power wall production is a separate matter, I think they were stopped being made recently and not all that many were actually produced) are kind of expensive, esp. the labor part of it. Last time I priced it there was exactly zero sense to do that setup. When people balk at dropping $3k into a HPWC install, what makes you think they would like dropping $10k+ into a powerwall one?

And you will take less than $10k hit if you buy model X and sell it right away? Again, this is just picking separate items in the conversation instead of following all of it (not even everything I have said) and arguing them separately. Yes, separately each point may be not so rare that you will not believe in that possibility. I've already said that in the very post you are quoting.

Not all utilities want you increase electricity consumption either. Like I said earlier, around here they will pay you to convert from electric to natural gas appliances.

Yes, would be reasonably valid point. On its own. But not in combination.

Also not everybody has a supercharger nearby I am sure (and for those that do, how keen are you to spend 1+ hour every day to "refill"? (we'll discount people that live across the street from their supercharger so the trip time is 0 since there could not be many of those))

Again, this how he was going to do it. I.e. the only thing that prevented this is said supercharger being overcrowded.

All in all different people have different circumstances so I am sure there are people that cannot make it work. With hundreds of thousands of Tesla owners in US alone, whatever fringe case you can come up with we probably can find an owner (or former owner) that matches the criteria

But I'm not talking about all the different people. I'm talking about one specific case.

 

[gnuarm]

Hi, I am very curious about this as I currently plug into 120v a lot of times. So does this just go into 120v and covert on the fly? Simple as that?
Is this the unit you are using? Quick 220 Systems: Model A220-20D 20 Amp Power Supply Straight Blade Outlet

I would be happy to get up to 9 miles compared to the 3 or 4 I am getting now. Plus this is mobile and I can take where ever I go. Thank you for the information

I asked about a home brew equivalent of this approach and I'm not sure it is a safe device. I suppose it can be made safely, but the home brew schematics only require one failure and a dangerous voltage can appear on the other input plug. The web site says they have been tested by a US/CSA/OSHA lab. But their description doesn't mention the particular issue of one plug inserted resulting in a dangerous voltage on the other plug.

 

[Seattle Tom]

You can do a search for Quick 220 and find a long thread on this product on TMC.

Long story short: there are some unique cases where it might help, but the use case is so specific (two 120V on different circuits that are out of phase and don’t have GFI, which rules out most garages) that it’s unlikely to be beneficial to most.

 

[gnuarm]

I ran across a full 12 stall supercharger the other day in Gaithersburg, MD. I was in Frederick and had to charge even after plugging in overnight. I was 7 of 12 and went to explore the shops there. After having my ear bent for some time by a Brittish gent about the Redskins (I had a skins hat on) I returned to an 88% charged car and a couple of cars waiting in line. This is in a parking deck so auto lines are rather awkward. One guy found a spot about the time I arrived. I spoke with the guy who was just starting in the stall next to me and he made the point (unprompted by me) that Tesla didn't want to get a reputation for their chargers to be congested. Even if it is a sign of success, it won't look good to prospective buyers. Another car pulled up making the line two deep again so I cut off my charge a little early and left.

The guy's son pointed out that of the 12 cars charging, not one was a model 3. Go figure!

 

[DCGOO]

I ran across a full 12 stall supercharger the other day in Gaithersburg, MD. I was in Frederick and had to charge even after plugging in overnight. I was 7 of 12 and went to explore the shops there. After having my ear bent for some time by a Brittish gent about the Redskins (I had a skins hat on) I returned to an 88% charged car and a couple of cars waiting in line. This is in a parking deck so auto lines are rather awkward. One guy found a spot about the time I arrived. I spoke with the guy who was just starting in the stall next to me and he made the point (unprompted by me) that Tesla didn't want to get a reputation for their chargers to be congested. Even if it is a sign of success, it won't look good to prospective buyers. Another car pulled up making the line two deep again so I cut off my charge a little early and left.
The guy's son pointed out that of the 12 cars charging, not one was a model 3. Go figure!

“The other day?” During the holidays by chance? That has always been a big time of contention for charging. I still have yet to have to wait in line to charge, although I admit it is much harder to avoid sharing power with an adjacent stall. I also have pulled in to the last open slot a couple of times. But then within a few minutes multiple cars left the site with no one else in queue. Available superchargers have more than tripled in my local area in just the last year. But i still charge at home.

Compare that to a Nissan or Chevy dealer with one or two charging slots, only open during business hours.

 

[Saghost]

I ran across a full 12 stall supercharger the other day in Gaithersburg, MD. I was in Frederick and had to charge even after plugging in overnight. I was 7 of 12 and went to explore the shops there. After having my ear bent for some time by a Brittish gent about the Redskins (I had a skins hat on) I returned to an 88% charged car and a couple of cars waiting in line. This is in a parking deck so auto lines are rather awkward. One guy found a spot about the time I arrived. I spoke with the guy who was just starting in the stall next to me and he made the point (unprompted by me) that Tesla didn't want to get a reputation for their chargers to be congested. Even if it is a sign of success, it won't look good to prospective buyers. Another car pulled up making the line two deep again so I cut off my charge a little early and left.

The guy's son pointed out that of the 12 cars charging, not one was a model 3. Go figure!

That's just because everyone wanted to get their Nando's Chicken fix during the holidays.

(But seriously, that's a shopping/restaurant hot spot, and most likely a lot of locals convenience Supercharging while they shop/eat on the holidays rather than a through traffic overload.)

 

[gnuarm]

“The other day?” During the holidays by chance? That has always been a big time of contention for charging. I still have yet to have to wait in line to charge, although I admit it is much harder to avoid sharing power with an adjacent stall. I also have pulled in to the last open slot a couple of times. But then within a few minutes multiple cars left the site with no one else in queue. Available superchargers have more than tripled in my local area in just the last year. But i still charge at home.

Compare that to a Nissan or Chevy dealer with one or two charging slots, only open during business hours.

They aren't the competition. ICE is the competition. Model 3 sales in the US seem to have peaked already. The concern is that Tesla need to compete with ICE now and in three years or so they will need to compete with other brands of EVs which will have a growing charging network connected to many manufacturers and many car makers. This can easily become the automotive version of Beta vs. VHS. Hmmm... I might be showing my age. Ok, HD DVD vs BlueRay.

 

[gnuarm]

That's just because everyone wanted to get their Nando's Chicken fix during the holidays.

(But seriously, that's a shopping/restaurant hot spot, and most likely a lot of locals convenience Supercharging while they shop/eat on the holidays rather than a through traffic overload.)

Certainly that is likely. But I'm not sure it's relevant. Nothing else there seemed even close to capacity. The guy I talked to for a bit said he had a house where he could charge but he moved to an apartment and now is dependent on the Supercharger. If they didn't need to charge I can't see them waiting in line... or so I say. I met a guy in a Bolt who only charged where it was free to save the $6 a charge, lol!

 

[Saghost]

Certainly that is likely. But I'm not sure it's relevant. Nothing else there seemed even close to capacity. The guy I talked to for a bit said he had a house where he could charge but he moved to an apartment and now is dependent on the Supercharger. If they didn't need to charge I can't see them waiting in line... or so I say. I met a guy in a Bolt who only charged where it was free to save the $6 a charge, lol!

The cost factor is surprisingly important to people, despite the small numbers. The casual point that not one of the twelve cars was a 3 is actually supporting evidence.

Right now, Model 3s are about 40% of the U.S. Tesla population (~140k vs ~210k S/X,) but only a fraction of them have free Supercharging, vs a majority of S and X owners.

 

[jboy210]

The cost factor is surprisingly important to people, despite the small numbers. The casual point that not one of the twelve cars was a 3 is actually supporting evidence.

Right now, Model 3s are about 40% of the U.S. Tesla population (~140k vs ~210k S/X,) but only a fraction of them have free Supercharging, vs a majority of S and X owners.

I see the same thing at the 3 Superchargers by me. I look at cars with licenses plates, meaning they have been owned for more than a month, at the superchargers. These are the cars that are little older and have consumed any limited free Supercharging. Most of what I see are S, X, or performance 3, which came with long term free Supercharging.

A surprising number of them are older Model S, with 3rd party reseller license frames. I assume these are cars with free lifetime SuperCharging and have a 2nd or 3rd owner.

 

[mxnym]

View attachment 364584

This is further supported by the current iteration of the wall connector information page, which now recommends a 60 amp circuit breaker for the Model S, X, & 3LR. It also shows the charging speed remaining the same from the 60 amp breaker all the way up to the 100 amp breaker for all models.

 

[bonaire]

Certainly that is likely. But I'm not sure it's relevant. Nothing else there seemed even close to capacity. The guy I talked to for a bit said he had a house where he could charge but he moved to an apartment and now is dependent on the Supercharger. If they didn't need to charge I can't see them waiting in line... or so I say. I met a guy in a Bolt who only charged where it was free to save the $6 a charge, lol!

One of the ways people gain wealth and keep it is by not spending little money all around. he may save $6 there, he may not go to Starbucks, may not go to Cheesecake factory on Friday nights, may not go to the movies, which leads to a large amount of savings over time. Then the money is there for the new car or the tuition or the gifts he could give. I wouldn't lol the $6 savings. you may have been talking to a millionaire there.