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Supercharging Nightmare Begins

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Perhaps you can explain to me how the SoC affects charging rate. I've never seen anything on most chargers other than full 100+ kW. It doesn't drop off significantly until I reach perhaps 75%. Even then it remains around 100 kW until the last 15%. So charging to 90% is always pretty fast.

Is the rate lower because you are starting at 50% while charging from 10-20% the rate doesn't drop off at 50%?
I’ll hazard a guess that you have a new model 3LR, or a new 100D, and live in a warm climate. Consider yourself lucky or at least fortunate enough to have a better car then some. The older batteries, especially smaller ones like the 60s, 70s, and the problematic 90s, charge much slower, especially above 50%. Last week I got 20 KW above 80%, even though I can get 115 KW initially at low SOC. I have a 2015 S70D. Furthermore, colder temperatures can really affect rates. For example, last winter I drove 110 mi from my garage to the SC at 0F. Upon arrival, I charged pretty much like normal summer temperatures because the batteries were relatively warm from the drive (even though I used most of a full charge due to the cold and my excessive heater use;) ). There was another Tesla trying to charge, also at low SOC, but had spent the night out in the cold, not plugged in and very cold soaked, just a few miles from the SC. Before I had arrived, that owner had been plugged in and waiting an hour for the battery to warm up, and still had another hour to go to get enough charge to continue on his trip. The car limited the charging rate until the battery heater was able to warm the massive battery. Note to all owners: Immediately charge to 90% or so upon arriving at a charging station in the winter. Don’t wait until morning otherwise you may need an extra hour or two.

Sorry for the long post. Bottom line: Rates vary due to battery temperature (not necessarily ambient), SOC, size, age, and station (max output, bad nozzle, sharing). People have posted a few graphs showing the rates as a function of SOC and battery size, giving more reasons to buy the larger battery.
 
I'm not expecting Tesla to operate differently, I'm pointing out that over the next 2 to 5 years they will have to operate differently or face a significant loss of market share. I've stated the rational for this idea. The bottom line is they don't have as much of a leg up on the cars themselves as they do the charging infrastructure. The Chevy Bolt may or may not be your favorite car, but as a BEV it is not bad at all. It's not selling well because of the charging. The Jag I-Pace is not likely to sell big because... of the lack of charging.

Other companies will make very competitive cars and they likely will be much better at the actual manufacturing which is likely to produce pricing pressure Tesla can't compete against. The only real advantage to buying a Tesla in 2020 I expect will be the charging infrastructure. If Tesla doesn't maintain that advantage they are going to have a hard time selling model Ys and beyond.

I don't get why people can't see this.

The level of arm chair quarterbacking and whining on the net and TMC can be laughable at times. You got it all figured out for Tesla do ya? Started the most successful EV company and the first new successful car company in the world lately? Put your last dime of F U money Into a venture that is destined to fail because it’s the right thing to do?

I’m pretty sure Tesla knows more than you, random internet whiner. I’m not going to list the infinite list of information/data and experience that they have that you don’t?

You or anyone else here really thinks they are not completely aware of the charging situation? Really?

Do you same clowns think that their business plan is to intentionally piss off customers and not do everything absolutely perfect according to every internet whiner/arm chair QB for laughs?

Hopefully Tesla can see your plan for their business so they can save themselves.

Go ahead, reply to this post and remove any slice of doubt to anyone reading it that you’re a blow hard know nothing fool.
 
I recommend a nice road trip like I just took to bring my "new" 2012 Signature P85 home. We had to hit 20 Superchargers between Seattle and Davenport, Iowa, and I was amazed that we were the solo Tesla at 17 of our stops (that had between 4 and 8 SCs). Two stops had one other Tesla, and we once ran into two other Teslas. I had worried that we might arrive at a "full" SC location and have to wait, but was pleasantly surprised that rural SCs still have no such issue. Good luck with solving this urban problem ;)

Just remember that when you do start seeing more Teslas at chargers in your neck of the woods, they will mostly be those urban Teslas out on vacation. ;)
 
Do you same clowns think that their business plan is to intentionally piss off customers and not do everything absolutely perfect

As much as I love Tesla (I wouldn't drive anything else today and about to order a second one fan boy), I think the issue is that their plans are sometimes over-ambitious or just not very well thought through. I'm sure they would approach certain things differently in hindsight. Luckily their core plan is pretty solid and tends to carry them through all the other shite such as poor quality control, low parts supply, missing publicly stated targets, dysfunctional service centres, bug ridden software, FSD farce, self-destructing Elon tweets, etc. It's actually a f****** good job that the core product is so amazing, otherwise the company wouldn't last very long at all.

Their latest challenge is going to be in providing effective supercharging as they move from niche to mass market with the Model 3. Encouraging owners to use superchargers for their daily local charging seems more like a good sales pitch than a sustainable business plan to me and I expect to see more threads like this one in the near future. Their original concept of using superchargers primarily for long haul trips seemed much more sensible, but maybe we will see a vast expansion of superchargers to prove me completely wrong!
 
Because you’re missing a key difference. Every charger except CCS installed by other companies adds to the available charge points for Tesla owners as well. All Tesla would need to do is add a CCS port or come up with an adapter. A Bolt or i-Pace cannot plug into a Supercharger nor any of Tesla’s destination charging points aside from the Clipper Creek J1772 typically included. Their charging advantage will easily be sustained for the foreseeable future.

Huh? I can't use a CCS fast charger because there is no adapter I am aware of. There is a Chademo adapter, but I don't have one. One thing you forget about this issue is that we are talking about a company run by an EV advocate... more than a Tesla advocate. He has publicly said that if Tesla fails because the other companies improve and out compete Tesla, that's a good thing! Elon has also said they are considering opening the Supercharger network to non-Tesla cars. Then all bets are off!

Other than J-1772 slow chargers, I've only charged from 120 VAC and Tesla units. I've yet to find an accessible 14-50. A local supermarket has a Chademo-Tesla adapter but it won't work with my car. That charger seems to work just fine on a Nissan Leaf.

While they may create an adapter, I'm pretty sure Tesla is never going to add other ports to the car. I get why Tesla has their own charger port, but why are there multiple competing standards??? The charging interface would seem to be BEV 101 level stuff to get right. Nobody cares if they picked the wrong video tape player. But who wants a car they can't charge???

I guess the only reason why we there are just two choices of steering wheel location is because we only have two hands! o_O
 
Dude, relax.

Listen, I'm a Tesla car owner AND a stock owner. I agree that they're messing some aspects of the business up. I said as much in my previous posts. I also agree the charging network needs to expand.

I just don't also think that:
- whining about it on a messageboard is particularly producitve
- it's going to be a big longterm problem
 
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In defense of the people you want to condemn... when you buy a car from Tesla they don't give accurate information on the range and charging issues. With a 120 mile route each way , I fully expected a 290 mile range to be enough for a round trip. As it turns out in a real scenario it's not even close and I've never yet made this trip without needing significant charging, mostly because the mileage is very unrealistic.

So because they quoted the info provided by the factory and determined by the EPA just like ICE dealers do its totally their fault? Have you ever heard the term "buyer beware"?

The MPG estimates on ICE cars are notoriously inaccurate so why would anyone think they were more accurate on an EV? If anything, I would think they are even less accurate than an ICE car. I've never had a dealer selling me an ICE car clarify the real world MPG versus the EPA rating so why would it be any different with a Tesla purchase? By no means am I saying that they (or Tesla) are right by not disclosing real world MPG or range but that is how it is and it's up to the buyer to be informed. The internet is amazing for this.

Just like if the OP spent 10min on a Tesla (or any EV) forum they would've realized the shortcomings of the charging network (especially in a place like San Fran) and you would've realized what the real world ranges are. On this Tesla forum we have 1000s of threads discussing this for all battery sizes, wheel sizes, and various configurations.
 
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Dude, relax.

Listen, I'm a Tesla car owner AND a stock owner. I agree that they're messing some aspects of the business up. I said as much in my previous posts. I also agree the charging network needs to expand.

I just don't also think that:
- whining about it on a messageboard is particularly producitve
- it's going to be a big longterm problem

If you don't want to participate in the conversation, then why would you? Clearly this is a topic of interest to you as you did post. Is it that you just don't want others to post??? I'm puzzled what the issue is.
 
As much as I love Tesla (I wouldn't drive anything else today and about to order a second one fan boy), I think the issue is that their plans are sometimes over-ambitious or just not very well thought through. I'm sure they would approach certain things differently in hindsight. Luckily their core plan is pretty solid and tends to carry them through all the other shite such as poor quality control, low parts supply, missing publicly stated targets, dysfunctional service centres, bug ridden software, FSD farce, self-destructing Elon tweets, etc. It's actually a f****** good job that the core product is so amazing, otherwise the company wouldn't last very long at all.

Their latest challenge is going to be in providing effective supercharging as they move from niche to mass market with the Model 3. Encouraging owners to use superchargers for their daily local charging seems more like a good sales pitch than a sustainable business plan to me and I expect to see more threads like this one in the near future. Their original concept of using superchargers primarily for long haul trips seemed much more sensible, but maybe we will see a vast expansion of superchargers to prove me completely wrong!

See my previous comment. My issue isn’t that people recognize crowded chargers, or any other “issue” they perceive Tesla to have. I take issue with anyone outside of Tesla claiming to know why it is that way and how they would do it better. The fact that people feel comfortable making these statements and claims is baffling to me, clearly they lack logical thinking. Everyone is an expert at everything though, it’s a disease.
 
See my previous comment. My issue isn’t that people recognize crowded chargers, or any other “issue” they perceive Tesla to have. I take issue with anyone outside of Tesla claiming to know why it is that way and how they would do it better. The fact that people feel comfortable making these statements and claims is baffling to me, clearly they lack logical thinking. Everyone is an expert at everything though, it’s a disease.

Yeah I know what you mean. I've been on the end of that kind of "armchair expert" commentary before in my working life. Although we did have an open forum for collecting external ideas and occasionally we would actually agree with some random dude's ideas for improvement. Elon himself has been known to put out public requests for ideas, which I think is a smart thing to do.

Some of Tesla's issues are blatantly obvious to pretty much anyone, but the reasons for those issues can only be sourced from inside knowledge. But given this is a public forum, people are bound to guess and put forward their own ideas of how things should be different. I guess the alternative is to say nothing, but that would make for a pretty dull forum!
 
Here are some actual factuals. This article has a graph of Supercharger installs. They don't say if it is world wide or US. If you consider this is a 13 week average it would seem to show a huge drop off in new chargers. I can't vet the source of the data since it wasn't provided.

Article, A Tale Of Two Teslas - Tesla, Inc. (NASDAQ:TSLA) | Seeking Alpha

Graph, https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2018/12/4/1017993-15439711135304193_origin.jpg

I would take a HUGE grain of salt with whatever Seeking Alpha is spewing. That site blatantly spins almost anything Tesla into something entirely negative, like 90% of the time. Their articles are all opinions yet they are presented as facts by short-sellers.
 
I'm puzzled what the issue is.
You've basically called a bunch of us in this thread stupid because we don't share your particular exact world view. That's my issue.

We chimed in on the thread to give thoughts about how to deal with crowded superchargers and then you essentially just called us idiots. You made a bunch of claims, didn't back any of them up with sources, and continued to belittle us.Then you claim that our reactions to you are an indication that we want to talk about your problems with Tesla? Weird.
 
If you look at supercharge.info you see that the 80 superchargers Tesla is currently building or has permits for in the US are primarly to handle capacity in CA, Northeast/Mid Atlantic, FL, and TX. Fortunately there is plenty of capacity in the remainding 98% of the geography so they don't have to focus resources there.

Supercharger network is doing just fine. Relax.

upload_2018-12-12_23-0-30.png
 
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I would take a HUGE grain of salt with whatever Seeking Alpha is spewing. That site blatantly spins almost anything Tesla into something entirely negative, like 90% of the time. Their articles are all opinions yet they are presented as facts by short-sellers.

I don't care where the info comes from, I want to fact check it. That's why I mentioned I wasn't able to find this info elsewhere. I was hoping someone knew of another source. I do see a total count on the Tesla site, but no history that I see. There are various articles around that cite total installations on various dates. If I get time maybe I'll dig up what I can, but it won't be nearly as detailed as the data in the graph. I also don't get why they would average the data over a 13 week (1 financial quarter) period. Why not just show the raw data, say weekly totals or even monthly?
 
You've basically called a bunch of us in this thread stupid because we don't share your particular exact world view. That's my issue.

We chimed in on the thread to give thoughts about how to deal with crowded superchargers and then you essentially just called us idiots. You made a bunch of claims, didn't back any of them up with sources, and continued to belittle us.Then you claim that our reactions to you are an indication that we want to talk about your problems with Tesla? Weird.

Ok, just consider that my posts are about Tesla the company, the cars and the charging network and not about you personally. How does that work? I won't respond to you directly anymore. Then we should be good, right?
 
I don't care where the info comes from, I want to fact check it. That's why I mentioned I wasn't able to find this info elsewhere. I was hoping someone knew of another source. I do see a total count on the Tesla site, but no history that I see. There are various articles around that cite total installations on various dates. If I get time maybe I'll dig up what I can, but it won't be nearly as detailed as the data in the graph. I also don't get why they would average the data over a 13 week (1 financial quarter) period. Why not just show the raw data, say weekly totals or even monthly?
Didn't someone already point you toward supercharge.info? That's https://www.supercharge.info if it wasn't obvious. They have a charts tab and a data tab and each of the superchargers has a link to a thread in the TMC forum, seems like you could find plenty of information on that site. I mean, it's not like they're handing you exactly the data you want on a silver platter, but if you're serious here, it shouldn't take too much extrapolation to get an idea of what's going on.
 
Didn't someone already point you toward supercharge.info? That's https://www.supercharge.info if it wasn't obvious. They have a charts tab and a data tab and each of the superchargers has a link to a thread in the TMC forum, seems like you could find plenty of information on that site. I mean, it's not like they're handing you exactly the data you want on a silver platter, but if you're serious here, it shouldn't take too much extrapolation to get an idea of what's going on.

Yeah, thanks.
 
Didn't someone already point you toward supercharge.info? That's https://www.supercharge.info if it wasn't obvious. They have a charts tab and a data tab and each of the superchargers has a link to a thread in the TMC forum, seems like you could find plenty of information on that site. I mean, it's not like they're handing you exactly the data you want on a silver platter, but if you're serious here, it shouldn't take too much extrapolation to get an idea of what's going on.

That site doesn't really provide any history. It does show there is not all that much activity in new Supercharger construction. I count 46 permits with no construction and 39 sites under construction. So a total of 85 new sites currently underway in some form. As of May of 2018 there were 569 stations in the US, so 85 new stations is significant, but not in any way unusual.

It would be a massive effort to track all this, especially through the supercharge.info site. I don't expect to do this personally.