TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Supercharging only aka "locals"

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by SeminoleFSU, Apr 25, 2014.

  1. SeminoleFSU

    SeminoleFSU Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Messages:
    718
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I've often wondered if at some point there will be owners in the future who purposefully decide to skip installing a HPWC and/or 14-50 and just plan on super charging all the time. Particularly if the SC is in a convenient spot on their route to work, etc.

    I think I've seen others suggest that's what Hawthorne has turned into- a bunch of locals charging...

    But can anybody actually prove this is an increasing phenomenon? Also, wouldn't this eventually get old for most people and they'd probably end up installing some sort of higher amp plug or HPWC... I've never supercharged before, and I'm sure they're fast.. but it's still taking time out of your day when you could just come home and plug it in and let it charge overnight... I guess unless you were just an ultra cheapskate? :)
     
  2. Kraken

    Kraken Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    Location:
    Voltageville, CA
    Unless you got dinner every day while doing it... Or only did it once or twice a week because you don't travel much a day...
     
  3. SeminoleFSU

    SeminoleFSU Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Messages:
    718
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    So for me that would be the Atlantic Station superchargers supposedly coming soon here in Atlanta.. Given that it's on my direct route, I could hypothetically just stop by there once per day coming to/from work and charge to 90%. It would be technically feasible to do that if I wanted to. However, in reality I know I wouldn't because of the hassle of traffic.. There are many places to eat and things to do in Atlantic Station, so dinner wouldn't be a problem... but it still just seems far less convenient than plugging in at home

    I'm sure if I haven't juiced up on a SC by then I'll stop by just to try it out :), but I don't see the allure of stopping there once/day just to get a free charge..
     
  4. Kraken

    Kraken Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    Location:
    Voltageville, CA
    Exactly. I usually drive past the supercharger that is 2 miles from my house with only 10-30 miles left on my battery and then plug in at home. But it is possible. I know some do it. A lot of people are frustrated by those that do... I'd just be considerate of others if the chargers are busy.

    i have only charged in such circumstances if something else is going on (I need a fast charge or I was going to the outlets anyway).
     
  5. martinwinlow

    martinwinlow Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    324
    Location:
    Herts, UK
    Not forgetting the extra stress SCing puts on the pack and the resulting commensurate drop in overall longevity… I don't really think this sort of thing is in keeping with the Tesla spirit! MW
     
  6. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,761
    Location:
    Bradford on Avon, UK
    Do we have any evidence that SC has a real impact on battery life in a Model S? Looking at the Leaf's that are dropping bars we don't seem to have a correlation with rapid charging :confused:
     
  7. J1mbo

    J1mbo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    613
    Location:
    UK
    Any suggestions for people who live near a SC and cannot install home charging? Maybe they should pay for slower charging to make sure the SC bays are empty for those who do have the "Tesla Spirit"..?

    Supercharging is a part of the package. People are entitled to use it as much as they need to. It is up to Tesla to make sure that there are enough SC points to meet demand.
     
  8. tga

    tga Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,221
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Says who? Tesla has said supercharging is fine. I'd trust them more than random internet rumors and hearsay.

    As I've said before, you need to look at the charging rate relative to battery capacity, not in absolute terms. Charging an 85kWh pack at 120 kW is a 1.4C charge rate. That is perfectly reasonable for a Li Ion battery, and nothing worth getting worried about.
     
  9. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,283
    Location:
    Sarasota, Florida
    IF this becomes an issue it will tend to be self-correcting.

    If Supercharging stations become congested due to the pace of vehicle production outstripping network expansion, the tendancy to stop at a Supercharger will be greatly reduced in favor of charging at home.

    If Superchargers don't become congested, then this will be a non-issue.

    Larry
     
  10. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,143
    #10 malcolm, Apr 26, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
    +1. One thing which would help would be over the weeks and months if Tesla can build up data on supercharger demand/use and publish forecasts of "low use" times to regular users to encourage them to avoid overcrowding. Maybe a simple time-shift which could be combined with working late at the office or an early start two days a week.
    (In fact, an intelligent system which knows your typical supercharging routine could suggest a selection of convenient slots with minimum wait times - assuming no charger faults or unexpected spikes in demand.)
    Managing and utilizing Supercharger "Quiet Times" will be even more important once Gen 3 sales pick up.
     
  11. David99

    David99 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2014
    Messages:
    2,066
    Location:
    Brea, Orange County
    #11 David99, Apr 26, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
    I'm depending a little on public chargers since I don't have a home charger. If I could I would absolutely have one, but it's not possible.

    I think people have the wrong impression about the Hawthorne SC. Los Angeles is a huge city that is spread out far. To 99.9% of the people living in Los Angeles county this charger is not local at all. It's actually in an area that most people would avoid. There is absolutely nothing within walking distance. It's not located conveniently to anything. Thinking locals would use the convenience of charging there to save $4.6 to charge is silly.

    If I had a home charger I would always use that for convenience. Any public charging except for destinations is an inconvenience because you are wasting time. It's fun to get a free charge for the first few weeks you own your first EV, but it gets old very quick. The reason Hawthorne is so busy is because there are just a huge amount of people driving across Los Angeles all the time and California has the most Teslas out of all states.

    I noticed the EV community is kind of tense about public charging stations. Everyone is a little worried that they are low on battery and arrive at a charger that is taken or ICEd or has a long wait. I think it will get better over the years when more stations are built in general. In the near future charging stations will be similar to WiFi. Stores will have them available to get customers. There will be plenty and EV will have a range that makes charging on the way just a perk rather than a requirement.

    PS: just saw an article that mentioned a test of EVs (Leafs) that were charging normally and one only Quickcharging. It turnes out both were losing battery capacity at almost the same rate. It means Quickcharging vs normal charging has a small effect on battery life. Now we all know that the Leaf has no thermal management for the batteries when they are DC charged. Tesla does. On the Leaf the charge current in relation to battery capacity is actually higher, meaning it's stressing the cells more. Still the negative effect on the battery compared to the normally charged car is small. I think it's save to assume that supercharging a Tesla is not going to have a negative effect on the battery.
     
  12. Ven Rala

    Ven Rala Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2012
    Messages:
    378
    Location:
    Montgomery County, Md
    The bethesda (MD) supercharger is only a few minutes out of my way from my usual commute, but it seems like such a waste to park and sit (even for 20 minutes) instead of just going home and plugging in. I do plug in when I'm at the mall (and even then only got 20-30 minutes then I move it so as not to take up the spot from others who may need it). I am sure there will be few 'locals' who will use superchargers as a regular charger, but I think it will be minimal.
     
  13. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Messages:
    4,711
    Location:
    Buckeye, AZ
    At some point Tesla is going to have to address metro/local charging if they want to sell a lot of Gen 3 vehicles. Many people who would be interested in this car live in apartments or in condo complexes where they cannot necessarily install a "home" charger. Asking these potential customers to rely on CHAdeMO or Level II is not going to cut it.
     
  14. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,283
    Location:
    Sarasota, Florida
    Agreed, but timing is critical.

    As I aluded to earlier, the issue is not whether locals charge at Supercharger stations, the issue is whether there is Supercharger congestion which local charging might exacerbate. As we know the initial roll-out of the Supercharger network is to support long distance travel. Later it would be wise for Tesla to factor in local considerations, including apartments and condominiums.

    However, if Tesla is successful in ramping up production by orders of magnitudes to support the mass market vehicle, then Tesla will be very hard pressed to address their initial objective of supporting long distance travel. In addition, their time and attention will have to be devoted not only to North America, but globally including the China market which is expected to exceed the North American market.

    I support your remarks that eventually local charging will have to be addressed. However, I believe that Tesla needs to remain focused on the roll-out of the network to support long distance travel. When that is secured now, and when production ramps up, then initiatives aimed at placing Superchargers locally can be addressed. In the meantime Tesla does have a very low key Destination Charging program aimed at providing free or discounted High Power Wall Connectors to qualifying host locations. No, it doesn't address the needs of apartment and condo dwellers, but it does supplement the Supercharger network.

    Larry
     
  15. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    18,235
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    Owners will begin to take care of apartment and condo dwelling themselves. As more and more people get plug in cars they will begin demanding and searching out apartments that have it. Eventually property developers will have to listen. It will be just one more amenity like a gym or covered parking...etc
     
  16. iffatall

    iffatall Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2013
    Messages:
    510
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Just curious: Why are we assuming that the Gen 3 car is going to be supercharging enabled? Even the 60kWh MS is not, by default.
     
  17. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    18,235
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    Elon has said they would in the past. He didn't say it would be included in the price but that they would be capable.
     
  18. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,283
    Location:
    Sarasota, Florida
    #18 Larry Chanin, Apr 28, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
    Yes. At the outset Elon decided that Teslas with only 40 kWh batteries were not suitable for long distance travel and he therefore did not permit adding Supercharging capabilities on the those vehicles. This has carried over to the RAVA4 EV and the Mercedes B-class EV, i.e. no Supercharger capabilities. The mass market Tesla will have a battery capable of 200+ mile range so it will have the option of adding Supercharging capabilities. In my opinion if Tesla is successful in increasing production by an order of magnitude to meet the stated mass market goal for the Gen 3 vehicles, a significant portion of them will opt for Supercharging. This development will create a potential for Supercharger congestion if Tesla does not also increase the roll-out of Superchargers by an order of magnitude.

    Larry
     

Share This Page