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Beavis
Model S Signature 991
George, you cannot possibly keep the folks on this site from coming up with inaccurate speculation and wild conspiracy theories. We come up with some good ones. You aren't selling cars to very stable people. If we were stable, we would be buying a $15,000 econo box.
Well said. Anything over the price of a Jetta is a luxury. We should try and get the best value for that extra money though and I'm hoping people are as happy with their car once they get it as I am. There are things still to work out but I'm hopeful Tesla follows through with the promised updates.
My questions are out of curiosity and my tendency to act as an advocate, since they don't impact me...
This is true, and I don't think this terminology was used at all. But that includes the 85kwh battery, as well. Are you saying that you could also have decided that there would be an access fee for the 85 battery too? Would you expect that would have been acceptable? If not, why do you think there would be a difference in people's expectations, considering the fact that it was never promised for we 85ers either?
Also, what about people who were planning to get 60kwh batteries who have received their configuration e-mail but have not finalized? Your configuration specialists have been VERY CLEAR that there would be no penalty for waiting the full 30 days to finalize. It seems to me that those who waited too long might be penalized $1,000 if that wait included yesterday. The answer to this might be very simple: that nobody is currently in that 30 day window right now?
I particularly appreciate the mention of some of the other issues (connectivity, etc.). Please keep that communication line open, even with partial information. I would love to see something addressing the door handles, and whether it will be possible for them to extend without touch; another issue that's constantly debated here, based on mixed messages from your team members.
This is true, and I don't think this terminology was used at all. But that includes the 85kwh battery, as well. Are you saying that you could also have decided that there would be an access fee for the 85 battery too? Would you expect that would have been acceptable? If not, why do you think there would be a difference in people's expectations, considering the fact that it was never promised for we 85ers either?
Also, what about people who were planning to get 60kwh batteries who have received their configuration e-mail but have not finalized? Your configuration specialists have been VERY CLEAR that there would be no penalty for waiting the full 30 days to finalize. It seems to me that those who waited too long might be penalized $1,000 if that wait included yesterday. The answer to this might be very simple: that nobody is currently in that 30 day window right now?
I particularly appreciate the mention of some of the other issues (connectivity, etc.). Please keep that communication line open, even with partial information. I would love to see something addressing the door handles, and whether it will be possible for them to extend without touch; another issue that's constantly debated here, based on mixed messages from your team members.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
There was apprehension on this forum as people waiting to hear what the business model would be. Endless discussion on if it would be a fee per use, maybe free for Sigs for one year, etc. I don't recall any assumptions that it would be free forever for any battery configuration. So I think it's fair to say that yes, Tesla could have decided on an access fee for the 85 kwh battery also. Again, forum posts before the supercharger announcement clearly were NOT in the camp of 'it all better be free'. (Would you have preferred fee per use over a one time charge?)
We're not only forgetting that ... we're forgetting how utterly AWESOME it is that there is a new business model in place making FREE charging available to a very large number of people. It's game-changing. And I'm still excited about it.
chmod a+wrx
Member
This is absurd.....Tesla official has to post in a forum to calm the waters.....
Forum....calm down! ! ! !
Tesla....communicate better! ! ! !
Forum....calm down! ! ! !
Tesla....communicate better! ! ! !
Yes, free is great, BUT one has to remember that not every customer gets to use a supercharger as of right now. The promise of more supercharges is just that, a promise.
If the design site supercharger option had simply remained "TBD" then I think this announcement would be a non-issue. What I can't swallow is that it was changed to "included," yet now it seems Tesla is trying to recover some costs of capital and operations at the Supercharger sites by charging for Supercharger hardware, software, etc. on 60kWh models. I was really stretching the budget to reach the 60kWh model as the 40 kWh doesn't have the range for frequent trips to the beach and mountains. Sadly, I will be requesting my deposit back, given costs for the maintenance contract and Supercharger. I understand these are early-adopter issues, but somehow communication between Tesla and potential customers needs to be improved. I read these forums every day and want nothing more than for Tesla to succeed. I will certainly plunk down a deposit on a GenIII as soon as it's possible, but the Model S is simply out of my reach now.
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
I was kind of hoping they would have them in more places than just California on the initial rollout (even if it was only three--NY, TX, CA). Far too many products and services are California first and end up being California only. Now I'm hoping that the two-year rollout will mostly done the first year rather than mostly at the end of the second.
Like Bonnie, I'm excited about this and would like it to come about before the excitement fades.
While I appreciate GB's post and do not doubt its honesty, I don't think this way of dealing with issues within Tesla is correct. They are putting themselves in a position where they have to back out of time after time. It's perhaps an Elon 101 and shame on us for not heeding the warnings. Case in point, watch the Revenge of the Electric Car. Elon has a bit after the price of the Roadster was increased on exiting reservation holders. He says they (the reservation holders) feel there was a bait and switch, and goes onto say in typical Elon honesty mode "and you know what, there was a bait and switch".
The past is the best indicator of performance in the future. The same is happening and will happen given the man on top. The truth (as i see it) is a rapidly changing platform with wide ranging financial implications and inadequate modeling (or man power to model that change) and its impact. Add the hesitation to communicate openly and you get into these corners where you have to back out using methods such as splitting hairs. E.g. They are now splitting SC to hardware/software/testing/calibrating. That is juvenile. You know SC doesn't work with a single part missing. As a consumer I want to know the feature, not its constituents, I am paying for. Given this method, Tesla can easily add other pieces and ask for money. "Oh, we forgot to tell you, you need a code as well - it's $1300. We didn't know the code generation algorithm back in July, but we didn't want to take away people's choices. So in every 85K car we put in a quantum computer (at our cost) so that when the 85k buyers decided to use the "included" SC they would have the option with the code generation logic downloaded to the computer in future - for $1300.
I jest of course, but I hope you see that we are in another bait and switch. Plain and simple. And this won't be the last. It'll be the same with the data plan and every other unknown you can think of.
None of this "dancing" would be necessary if they simply had told everyone SC for 60k is TBD until it ain't. Is that so bad? That would have delayed people committing to the 60k and Tesla lose on much needed cash. I get it. Is that better or all the ill will from people going through a bait and switch. I hope the money they generated (and hold people hostage to) is worth it.
The past is the best indicator of performance in the future. The same is happening and will happen given the man on top. The truth (as i see it) is a rapidly changing platform with wide ranging financial implications and inadequate modeling (or man power to model that change) and its impact. Add the hesitation to communicate openly and you get into these corners where you have to back out using methods such as splitting hairs. E.g. They are now splitting SC to hardware/software/testing/calibrating. That is juvenile. You know SC doesn't work with a single part missing. As a consumer I want to know the feature, not its constituents, I am paying for. Given this method, Tesla can easily add other pieces and ask for money. "Oh, we forgot to tell you, you need a code as well - it's $1300. We didn't know the code generation algorithm back in July, but we didn't want to take away people's choices. So in every 85K car we put in a quantum computer (at our cost) so that when the 85k buyers decided to use the "included" SC they would have the option with the code generation logic downloaded to the computer in future - for $1300.
I jest of course, but I hope you see that we are in another bait and switch. Plain and simple. And this won't be the last. It'll be the same with the data plan and every other unknown you can think of.
None of this "dancing" would be necessary if they simply had told everyone SC for 60k is TBD until it ain't. Is that so bad? That would have delayed people committing to the 60k and Tesla lose on much needed cash. I get it. Is that better or all the ill will from people going through a bait and switch. I hope the money they generated (and hold people hostage to) is worth it.
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If I were a 60kwh reservation holder, yes, I would have preferred to have that as an option.
Since you're responding to my post in particular, I should point out that I haven't forgotten any of those things.
Beavis
Model S Signature 991
I have no dog in this fight but I wouldn't characterize this as a bait and switch. It has been my understanding that there would always be a fee for supercharger use. I never understood it to be free. So the fee is $1,000 if you already configured and $2,000 for those who haven't for unlimited use over the lifetime of your vehicle. Like the maintenance fee furor, this is a question of perceived value for the amount paid. If you only take occasional road trips, the fee does not support the value. But if you take frequent trips (and the SC's are where you want to go) the fee is a good deal. Look at your circumstances and decide but I would not characterize it as a bait and switch.
I think the open issues/questions are why this can't be configured at a later date and where are the SC's going to be.
I think the open issues/questions are why this can't be configured at a later date and where are the SC's going to be.
I can understand that if the hardware isn't there, it isn't there and retrofitting won't happen. I'm not really sure why you couldn't have the hardware installed (for the first $1000) but not install the software (for the second $1000) until the time comes for you start to using the supercharger network. Particularly if you are in the five year area rather than the two year area.
Beavis
Model S Signature 991
Absolutely. The difficulty of the decision, if I had to make one, would be when the SC's are going to be where I need them. Without that data point, it is difficult to make a decision so the solution should be that you can get the hardware now and enable access later.
Great point. There will be those in the 2ndary market actively looking for that feature. One that cannot just be added like snazzy rims or Carbon Fiber bits.
Reminds me of the $1500 that was added to the price of a used Prius here in CA when it sported a set of HOV stickers.
chmod a+wrx
Member
Paying up front for the software is easily explained.....Tesla needs the money.....
spatterso911
P100DL - Raven
Not even sure that keeping the TBD status would have staved off the conspiracy theory hounds. The next comment after announcing that "TBD" = $2000 is that Tesla may as well have charged $10000 and that this was a trap to get those that committed to paying for a 60 kWh battery to essentially pay more, or to wring every dollar out of unsuspecting people who just want to drive electric. C'mon people! Despite my commitment to an 85 kWh battery, I'm not at all surprised that the charges are what they are. I am very pleased that the costs at the pump, so to speak, are completely simplifies, no codes, no cards, no passwords. Thats a big win for the Tesla planners, and a big win for us potential owners. I have been aware every step of the way that for those buying the 60 kWh battery, there WOULD be some charge, but not what the charge would be. So no real surprise here. I am surprised that Tesla decided to discount those that have already committed to the mid-battery (60 kWh) and its a pleasant surprise.
Not all kudos for Tesla, though. I don't think that Tesla worked out the best way to communicate issues to those with reservations, and I think the store consultants could be better utilized WRT contacting reservation holders in their "assigned areas" and filling them in via email on what is developing. Prices, options, production delays (releasing information to an extent that it doesn't harm the company). Perhaps that would please some of the masses. Some will find a fly in every ointment. Some don't really care and just want a well-engineered car that is fun to drive and electric.
I get that some people are stretching thin to buy this car. To them, I say, "you signed up to early!" With no clear sight picture, no clear target, you took your shot and fired the gun. Now you're mad that you've missed your target! Better to wait a year and see exactly what the costs will be, defined out for you if a $500 here or $1000 there price difference will mean yay or nay in getting the car. That is just too narrow of a window of opportunity for you, if the price changes completely knock you out of the market for this car, given that the price at this stage is a bit of a moving target...as expected. There are still prices for things that are as yet to be defined...
1. Cost of the connectivity. I fully expect conspiracy theories and disgust at that price announcement as people become enraged at having to pay "X" amount for 3G instead of LTE, or that they don't have to availability to use their favorite provider, or that the chosen provider doesn't work well in their area or provide family share plans or the like.
2. Cost of upgrades and improvements. Wanna see a thunderstorm? Wait for the announcement on how much ACC, opportunity consoles, retractable mirrors, proximity sensors, levitation, and warp hyperdrive will cost. Some will insist that it should all be free since their previous car came with it. Others won't really care, just glad the stuff is finally in production and can be retrofitted to their cars, if at all possible.
3. Cost of extended warranty plans and battery replacement warranties. Fun times ahead here, too.
I recommend that people operating on such narrow margins just wait on reserving, defer if you've reserved, or realize that the car you really want will cost more than you think at this point in the game.
We all have to query the logic that Tesla uses in their decision making. We equally must query the logic to our responses and decide if we are throwing the baby out with the bath water with every announcement.
Not all kudos for Tesla, though. I don't think that Tesla worked out the best way to communicate issues to those with reservations, and I think the store consultants could be better utilized WRT contacting reservation holders in their "assigned areas" and filling them in via email on what is developing. Prices, options, production delays (releasing information to an extent that it doesn't harm the company). Perhaps that would please some of the masses. Some will find a fly in every ointment. Some don't really care and just want a well-engineered car that is fun to drive and electric.
I get that some people are stretching thin to buy this car. To them, I say, "you signed up to early!" With no clear sight picture, no clear target, you took your shot and fired the gun. Now you're mad that you've missed your target! Better to wait a year and see exactly what the costs will be, defined out for you if a $500 here or $1000 there price difference will mean yay or nay in getting the car. That is just too narrow of a window of opportunity for you, if the price changes completely knock you out of the market for this car, given that the price at this stage is a bit of a moving target...as expected. There are still prices for things that are as yet to be defined...
1. Cost of the connectivity. I fully expect conspiracy theories and disgust at that price announcement as people become enraged at having to pay "X" amount for 3G instead of LTE, or that they don't have to availability to use their favorite provider, or that the chosen provider doesn't work well in their area or provide family share plans or the like.
2. Cost of upgrades and improvements. Wanna see a thunderstorm? Wait for the announcement on how much ACC, opportunity consoles, retractable mirrors, proximity sensors, levitation, and warp hyperdrive will cost. Some will insist that it should all be free since their previous car came with it. Others won't really care, just glad the stuff is finally in production and can be retrofitted to their cars, if at all possible.
3. Cost of extended warranty plans and battery replacement warranties. Fun times ahead here, too.
I recommend that people operating on such narrow margins just wait on reserving, defer if you've reserved, or realize that the car you really want will cost more than you think at this point in the game.
We all have to query the logic that Tesla uses in their decision making. We equally must query the logic to our responses and decide if we are throwing the baby out with the bath water with every announcement.
Right. I don't buy the 'calibration' stuff at all. What happens when you do a battery swap?
sublimaze1
8Dec2012 / Leeroy Jenkins
Perhaps. Perhaps not.
I was originally going to do the 40 and after the test drive, I switched to the 85. (I also switched to the pano roof and the active suspension):
Why 85? It would (theoretically) get me from my house to my sister's house (Dallas to Houston)
Why pano? Taller men / people can sit in the back more comfortably and it gives me four hardpoints on the roof
Why active? Without it, I was not going to get my car until March or April.
So one could consider the Dallas Test drive a bait and switch for me (to some extent). But it also begs one to consider that with each change in this fledgeling company, are some of their decisions made internally for their own success, and others for ours? That is, if the value of the car with or without a certain accoutrement (e.g. SC ready, wifi, etc.) allows them to market better, then should they do it gratis, do it with a prepaid fee, or charge you later? It is a toss up for them.
I don't know about you, but I have never started a car company, so I don't know how it works. I am not in business, so I don't profess to understand that whole shootin' match.
2 cents lighter,
WJ
McKinney TX
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