Supercharging Price - What if it is $2500?

[FlatSix911]

Another data point here in California ... the local Supercharger in Mt. View is crowded 24/7.
The 12 stalls are always full and Tesla is providing a parking attendant to direct traffic and monitor usage.
I am afraid this will be the future for all owners once the Model 3 is in production unless we have 10X capacity.

 

[Az_Rael]

The base model will be able to charge via ChaDeMo presuming you have a ChaDeMo adapter as is the case today

That would be quite the leg up on all the competition, since the Bolt and the Leaf all charge extra for DC Fast charging capability.

The consumer in me thinks that would be awesome, whereas the shareholder in me thinks Tesla should charge the same as the competition if that is the current standard.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

I would never use even $1,000 worth of electricity / fuel costs unless I keep the car going for decades.

I won't get too critical of the TL;DR part of your post, because I'm going to check a lot of boxes on my Model 3, but I'm not nitpicking over the cost of Supercharging (especially since WE DON'T KNOW what it is yet)

When you say you'll never use $1,000 of electricity, do you mean charging away from home? Charging at home? Will you be donating your Model 3 to a museum?

 

[TaoJones]

That would be quite the leg up on all the competition, since the Bolt and the Leaf all charge extra for DC Fast charging capability.

The consumer in me thinks that would be awesome, whereas the shareholder in me thinks Tesla should charge the same as the competition if that is the current standard.

Indeed, except that their ChaDeMo is our SC.

Conversely, ChaDeMo to Tesla is an afterthought.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Indeed, except that their ChaDeMo is our SC.

Conversely, ChaDeMo to Tesla is an afterthought.

For those of us who don't currently have a Tesla, all I can say is: relax.

If the Model 3 is your first Tesla, you're not going to see it for another (at least) 16+ months. And that is WILDLY optimistic, unless you're a Tesla employee.



Point being: Look at all of the movement going on, not only with Tesla, but the EV industry as a whole. The White House just worked with a coalition of utilities and EV makers to free up billions to look into a more robust and efficient charging infrastructure. Tesla has signed a deal with Ruby Tuesday, they're exploring deals with gas stations, and they've quietly boosted the charging power of their SC's to 145KW, greatly reducing the time a Model S90 has to sit recharging.


Things are moving and happening, to the point where today's reality in the trials and travails of Supercharging will be completely different by the time you have your car.


If you want to hear how bad some people have had it...talk to some of the early East Coast Model S adopters who had their cars well before the Supercharger network started to trickle its way out here.

 

[Matteo]

Hi,

When Elon talked about this he said "if users select that package", meaning there will be multiple packages. Therefore I would expect at least two options, lifetime supercharging and pay per use.

According to the stats page of THIS survey with over 200 Tesla owners, average supercharger use is 27.6 times per year per user. It's possible to do some calculations based on that.

Another interesting detail is Chademo DC fast charging. Buyers who don't purchase any supercharging package will get the hardware for free but because they didn't pay for it, DC charging might be disabled by default. That's what Tesla did with the old S60's. Chademo doesn't work on S60's that don't have supercharging enabled. To summarise, I would expect at least these two options:

1. Lifetime unlimited supercharging: $2500
2. Pay per use: $400 hardware activation fee + $15 per session

 

[MP3Mike]

Another interesting detail is Chademo DC fast charging. Buyers who don't purchase any supercharging package will get the hardware for free but because they didn't pay for it, DC charging might be disabled by default. That's what Tesla did with the old S60's. Chademo doesn't work on S60's that don't have supercharging enabled. To summarise, I would expect at least these two options:

1. Lifetime unlimited supercharging: $2500
2. Pay per use: $400 hardware activation fee + $15 per session

Not entirely true, you can enable the DC fast charging hardware, for CHAdeMO, on an original S60 for $600 less than enabling Supercharging. I like where you are going but given the current costs: $1,400 (DCFC hardware) + $600 (Supercharging) + $500 change fee= $2,500 to enable Supercharging after purchase on an original S60 I would think something more like this:

1. DC fast charging hardware activation only: $400
2. DCFC activation + poo-poo plan enabling: $500 + $30/use
3. DCFC activation + Supercharger: $1,000

Of course the problem with that is it certainly doesn't follow the KISS principle, and it really makes the poo-poo plan unattractive. And then if you change your mind after purchase add $500 as a change penalty to all of those. Want to upgrade from DCFC to poo-poo capable? That will cost you $600. (Yes that is more than it would have originally cost, but changes always cost more.)

When Elon talked about this he said "if users select that package", meaning there will be multiple packages. Therefore I would expect at least two options, lifetime supercharging and pay per use.

Of course there will be multiple packages. You can probably add the PUP, premium upgrade package, to a base Model 3 and that won't give you Supercharging, but if you opt for the larger battery/AWD package you will get Supercharging included.

 

[ohmman]

One...more...time. The only Model S which charged for supercharging was the original S60. The charge was $2000 if it was ordered at the same time as the order of the car. The price of $2500 was if it was enabled after delivery.

That $2000 was included in the price in the higher battery option cars.

Except that you can't attribute that value solely to Supercharging. It's possible that $3k of the S60 revenue was attributable to Supercharger buildout/"marketing expense" even if the buyer didn't select Supercharging. The $2k just made up the difference to put it on par with the 85, which had $5k attributable to those expenses.

My numbers are made up and probably quite high, but my point is just that you can't assume that because $2k was charged, that's how much Tesla set aside for Supercharging expenses. It's quite possible it was higher than that.

 

[JeffK]

Another data point here in California ... the local Supercharger in Mt. View is crowded 24/7.
The 12 stalls are always full and Tesla is providing a parking attendant to direct traffic and monitor usage.
I am afraid this will be the future for all owners once the Model 3 is in production unless we have 10X capacity.

While there are certain locations like this, there are a great many others that sit virtually unused. Tesla will simply have to use data to determine where to expand to fulfill the most need.

 

[Saghost]

While there are certain locations like this, there are a great many others that sit virtually unused. Tesla will simply have to use data to determine where to expand to fulfill the most need.

This is a point I think a lot of people miss when they try to evaluate the effect of doubling the number of pedestals.

To date, Tesla has mostly been expending coverage, with some strategic improvements in capacity in California and a few places on the east coast.

However, they don't need twice as many locations to get solid ~100 mile interval coverage throughout the continental US and much of Canada.

Most of those new pedestals are presumably going to be capacity expansion in the heavily loaded parts of the net instead. This means that doubling the number of stations may have more like a three or five hundred percent increase in system capacity, without even getting in to the queueing theory discussions I've seen here (I don't entirely understand it, but apparently having twice the capacity reduces the likelhood of hitting a line by a lot more than that.)

 

[S'toon]

Except that you can't attribute that value solely to Supercharging. It's possible that $3k of the S60 revenue was attributable to Supercharger buildout/"marketing expense" even if the buyer didn't select Supercharging. The $2k just made up the difference to put it on par with the 85, which had $5k attributable to those expenses.

My numbers are made up and probably quite high, but my point is just that you can't assume that because $2k was charged, that's how much Tesla set aside for Supercharging expenses. It's quite possible it was higher than that.

So, do I put you in the "Tesla will charge Model 3 owners more than Model S owners to enable supercharging" camp? Don't you think that'd cause a whole lot of cancellations?

 

[Chuq]

1. Pay per use: $400 hardware activation fee + $15 per session

I continue to struggle to see how a "per session" fee will be worked out.

• They can't reasonably charge per session because someone who plugs in for 5 minutes and then leaves will be charged the same as someone who is there for an hour and a half.
• They can't reasonably charge per minute because people get different charge rates depending on what state of charge they are at, what stall they are plugged into, and many other variables.
• But... they also can't charge per kWh because this puts you into the category of an electricity retailer, which varies per region and has a lot of regulatory overhead.

 

[Red Sage]

Another data point here in California ... the local Supercharger in Mt. View is crowded 24/7.
The 12 stalls are always full and Tesla is providing a parking attendant to direct traffic and monitor usage.
I am afraid this will be the future for all owners once the Model 3 is in production unless we have 10X capacity.

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me." -- Frank Herbert, 'DUNE'​

 

[FlatSix911]

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me." -- Frank Herbert, 'DUNE'

Thanks for that ...
What has been your experience at the LA area Superchargers?

 

[Red Sage]

Thanks for that ...
What has been your experience at the LA area Superchargers?

Passing by them. The closest I've been was to walk through the parking lot at the Tesla 'D' Event at Hawthorne. Valets were parking the cars as they arrived, or taking them to the Supercharger as needed that night. I've been tempted to go see if there was any 'local abuse' but decided not to bother. I am told that the one in Burbank is brutally packed all the time though. I rather hope that for traffic along I-5 that new locations in Buena Park and Santa Ana will relieve a bunch of clutter between Burbank and San Juan Capistrano.

 

[ohmman]

So, do I put you in the "Tesla will charge Model 3 owners more than Model S owners to enable supercharging" camp? Don't you think that'd cause a whole lot of cancellations?

I suppose it depends on how you define it. Model S and X owners have had Supercharging fees coupled with the base price for a long while now. Tesla's (Elon's) statement has been that they'll decouple it for the 3.

If you're asking - will Tesla charge Model 3 owners more than Model S owners over the base price - then I guess yes. That seems to be exactly what Elon said.

If you're asking - will Tesla charge Model 3 owners more than Model S owners based on actual accounting value - then my point stands as above. I don't think we know what the S owners pay/paid overall. We know that for a while it could be added for $2k to an already profitable vehicle, but it's very possible that wasn't isolated accounting.

For people buying a car in 2017, Model S owners will get free for life Supercharging (probably) and Model 3 owners will pay for free for life Supercharging (probably). So I guess if I'm in a camp (I'm not) it would be the one you mentioned. But I don't like the phrasing and I don't think it's clearly defined as a problem.

Final note - I don't think any of us know what Tesla's going to do anyway. They have a tendency to be hard to read on this kind of thing.

 

[MP3Mike]

I continue to struggle to see how a "per session" fee will be worked out.

• They can't reasonably charge per session because someone who plugs in for 5 minutes and then leaves will be charged the same as someone who is there for an hour and a half.
• They can't reasonably charge per minute because people get different charge rates depending on what state of charge they are at, what stall they are plugged into, and many other variables.
• But... they also can't charge per kWh because this puts you into the category of an electricity retailer, which varies per region and has a lot of regulatory overhead.

But third party CHAdeMO chargers charge a per session fee, and people are using them. And not everyone charges for the same length of time. I think you have hit the nail on the head why some of us say that the poo-poo plans just won't fly.

On the other hand some third-party networks charge a flat per-month fee. For example $19.99/month. Which works out to ~$240/year or ~$1,200 for 5 years. So maybe that is how Tesla will do it in addition to the "lifetime" plan. But I would think it would need to be a contract for at least a year at a time, not individual months at a time. (Otherwise you end up with people paying ~$40 for two months of heavy use during the vacation season, which doesn't seem fair to support the network.)

 

[TaoJones]

If people want to save the $2,500 SC fee or whatever it's going to be, then great. But don't clutter up a perfectly good, best in class fast charging network with hinky poo-poo schemes.

Go get a ChaDeMo adapter and use ChaDeMos via, hopefully in your area by then, a nice $19.95/month unlimited use plan.

Let's say you own the car 5 years. And you plan 2 trips a year of 2,000 miles round trip each. That's roughly 200 SC visits, including sightseeing while at yer destinations.

Poo-poo won't save you nearly as much as you think. Subscription-based or poo-poo based.

There's a reason why people will gladly order their M3s without SC access. It's because they won't use SCs.

As long as the cars come with the hardware and as long as it is unlocked such that ChaDeMos can be used, there is no justifiable reason to add friction to a frictionless system of SCs.

If you want the fastest charging, then pay for it up front or enable it later for a slightly higher fee.

If you really think you will only use fast charging "once in a while", then for you, there are ChaDeMo. $491 for the adapter (delivered, with tax if in CA), and either $19.95/month or per session.

I'd guess 70/30 would be the split for/not, but we can't really guess until the SC enablement cost is known.

For a family with a perfectly good minivan and a garage in a town without SCs, paying for SCing won't happen.

An apartment dweller in Burbank would probably opt for SCing and for the up front cost.

It's not rocket science. It's capacity management and Tesla's commitment to density as well as distance has done just fine so far. Other than for persecuting locals, poo-poo serves little purpose.

 

[JeffK]

a nice $19.95/month unlimited use plan

Totally agree

See here's the deal, if a monthly plan exists then a great majority of people would only need/want it for the times they normally travel long distances such as vacations and holidays. Even then, I technically only want it for a handful of days throughout the year where I'm doing the actual driving. A PPU or even monthly fees for me would feel just like being stuck addicted to gasoline or a cell phone plan. I want it to "feel" free.

For my use case I'd rather it be bundled in the cost of something else so I don't "see" it. Psychologically, it'd "feel" more like free and free for life.

 

[melindav]

For a family with a perfectly good minivan and a garage in a town without SCs, paying for SCing won't happen.

To add my 2cents... I do have various alternate cars and live where there are no superchagers nearby (closest that I occasionally drive past is 90 miles away), have a garage to charge in, 90% or more of my driving is local and I will enable SCing.
To me, it is just part of the cost/benefit of a Tesla. If it is a $2000-2500 up front cost, and I personally only use a SC 10 times or 200 times a year, its worth it for the ability to use the network at all. Chademo is not much more widely installed (at least currently) around my location and the clunky adaptor does not make it appealing at all