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This makes my head spin. The relevant units are kWh and kW. So at a power of 60kW you get 60kWh in one hour. Or one kWh every minute.
blincoln
Member
If you are curious about the (future) Supercharger charging costs, check out A Better Routeplanner - it has been updated to show the price for each charging stop.
As expected UK is fairly expensive. £0.20. Our domestic electricity can be got as cheap as about £0.10.
Comparing to "liquid fuels" - £1 = 5kW. 5kW gets you about 20miles if you drive economically - maybe a bit more in a Model 3. Diesel in the UK is about £1.20 a litre - would get you about 10 miles in a 1.6litre hatchback. So diesel is about 2.5x more expensive than Supercharging. Petrol 3x the price of supercharging.
But this is MUCH better than Ecotricity which brought in a £6 charge for 30minutes - and that's to probably 90% charge a 24kW Leaf. So £6 for 20kW - or £0.33 per kW at best- but if you were stupid and only put in 2KW it would be £3 per kW !!!
Comparing to "liquid fuels" - £1 = 5kW. 5kW gets you about 20miles if you drive economically - maybe a bit more in a Model 3. Diesel in the UK is about £1.20 a litre - would get you about 10 miles in a 1.6litre hatchback. So diesel is about 2.5x more expensive than Supercharging. Petrol 3x the price of supercharging.
But this is MUCH better than Ecotricity which brought in a £6 charge for 30minutes - and that's to probably 90% charge a 24kW Leaf. So £6 for 20kW - or £0.33 per kW at best- but if you were stupid and only put in 2KW it would be £3 per kW !!!
hingisfan
hingisfan_Mark_V
Actually the per min structure will encourage ppl to move their cars a lot more than the per kwh system... Cause u won't want to pay for the much slower charging speeds when the car gets up over 85 or 90%.
It would probably combat the congestion issues a lot more if they did per min across the board. Many people would set to 80% and then move their car promptly to avoid idle fees.
It would probably combat the congestion issues a lot more if they did per min across the board. Many people would set to 80% and then move their car promptly to avoid idle fees.
With enough Powerpacks and a LOT of solar panels at each location Tesla could do a few clever things between 1. their own electricity, 2, the grid, 3 customers. They could, with enough storage make money in several ways - or at least cover the costs.
1. sell to the Supercharger users.
2. Sell electricity "they" generate - especially at peak times (through stored elec).
3. Arbitrage the grid. Take electricity at cheap night times - sell it at peak times - leaving some for supercharging use.
I'm sure some software engineer is writing code to set the level of charge based on:
1. price you buy at per kW / price you sell at kW (if a deal can be made supplier)
2. popularity of supercharger at different times
3. predicted storage % you want to keep the Powerpacks at at different times of the day
4. predicted solar activity (if your supercharger has solar panels)
There's a LOT of money in the arbitrage bit / peak-demand bit to be made.
Would expect to see more Powerpacks appearing at Supercharger stations soon.
Interestingly my girlfriends brother (who went to Oxford and did maths) worked for the European Energy Agency writing models for the german solar grid to better predict electricity generated based on long distance weather forecasting to improve forecasted generation accuracy. He'd be great at the above!
1. sell to the Supercharger users.
2. Sell electricity "they" generate - especially at peak times (through stored elec).
3. Arbitrage the grid. Take electricity at cheap night times - sell it at peak times - leaving some for supercharging use.
I'm sure some software engineer is writing code to set the level of charge based on:
1. price you buy at per kW / price you sell at kW (if a deal can be made supplier)
2. popularity of supercharger at different times
3. predicted storage % you want to keep the Powerpacks at at different times of the day
4. predicted solar activity (if your supercharger has solar panels)
There's a LOT of money in the arbitrage bit / peak-demand bit to be made.
Would expect to see more Powerpacks appearing at Supercharger stations soon.
Interestingly my girlfriends brother (who went to Oxford and did maths) worked for the European Energy Agency writing models for the german solar grid to better predict electricity generated based on long distance weather forecasting to improve forecasted generation accuracy. He'd be great at the above!
Brovane
Member
So where is the Cost Advantage for travel with an EV, with these prices?
Audi A3 Diesel - Let's Assume 40MPG Highway LA to San Francisco 400 Miles with an average Diesel price at the pump of $2.7 Gallon
So 10 Gallons used = $27 in Fuel Cost
Tesla Model S - Let's Assume 2.8 Miles Per Kwh
142.9 Kwh used for the trip at 20-Cents a Kwh = $28.6 in energy cost for the trip.
Audi A3 Diesel - Let's Assume 40MPG Highway LA to San Francisco 400 Miles with an average Diesel price at the pump of $2.7 Gallon
So 10 Gallons used = $27 in Fuel Cost
Tesla Model S - Let's Assume 2.8 Miles Per Kwh
142.9 Kwh used for the trip at 20-Cents a Kwh = $28.6 in energy cost for the trip.
If any of the free 400 kWh are unused during the first year, will they be rolled over to the next year? In other words, if 300 kWh are used during the first year, will the unused 100 kWh be added to another 400 kWh for the second year, thus making a free 500 kWh available for that second year?
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
idealsol
Member
Unlikely the average ICE we might have is getting 40MPG. In my case, we only get 24MPG on a long trip
So 16.66 gallons @ 2.8 is 46.65
And in town day to day use we only get 17MPG, thus 65.88 @ 2.8 for 87 octane
Moot point for anyone getting free Supercharging currently
Thank you, MP3Mike & FlatSix 911.
Regarding the sentence, "If the car transfers ownership, credits are reset on the date of the transfer", does this mean the second owner automatically gets a free 400 kWh during his first year of ownership, or would there be some type of proration adjustment based on the fraction of a year and kWh usage by the first owner?
Regarding the sentence, "If the car transfers ownership, credits are reset on the date of the transfer", does this mean the second owner automatically gets a free 400 kWh during his first year of ownership, or would there be some type of proration adjustment based on the fraction of a year and kWh usage by the first owner?
I'm not sure I like this idea anymore, it seeks to only benefit California as that to my knowledge is the only area with supercharging abuse exists to warrant this action. I would have hoped that they would have made the credit applicable for LOCAL supercharging ONLY, in your area or state. Perhaps I'm not understanding this but if you only get 1,000 miles free, then if you take a trip from NY to Florida you have to pay part of the way there and all the way back?
This takes away the major competitive advantage of Tesla over other EV's especially now when proper competition is coming. This leaves the door wide open for any other company to provide "FREE LONG DISTANCE TRAVEL" as a competitive edge. Also allows other networks i.e. ChargePoint to be the more compelling offering in terms of a paid charging infrastructure, which it has more stations around the US.
This takes away the major competitive advantage of Tesla over other EV's especially now when proper competition is coming. This leaves the door wide open for any other company to provide "FREE LONG DISTANCE TRAVEL" as a competitive edge. Also allows other networks i.e. ChargePoint to be the more compelling offering in terms of a paid charging infrastructure, which it has more stations around the US.
Most people aren't driving 40 mpg cars. And most people don't want to drive a diesel.
Also most people should be starting from home with a full battery.
Good point, though you still had to pay for the first 200 miles or so at your home's rate.
My off peak PG&E rate is about $0.11/hour, so I think the answer to your question is "Yes".
Now that I know the details of the new Supercharger plan it seems very reasonable to me. Later this year I will be replacing my "classic" S with a new Tesla and I will be happy to pay for whatever Supercharging I need above 400kWh/year.
I am confident that over time this plan, combined with the new idle fees, will alleviate the Supercharger overcrowding we see now at some sites. There will continue to be brief periods where crowding occurs at a particular site due to an inherent degree of randomness in, well, the universe
or moments like the annual peak traffic LA-to-Vegas for CES. But it isn't practical for Tesla to size the Supercharger network to accomodate those rare peak moments.
Going forward Tesla continues to offer "FREE LONG DISTANCE TRAVEL" for approximately 1,000 miles/year. It is simply not "UNLIMITED".
When another car company starts building a competitive long distance EV and also builds a competitive long distance charging network AND offers "unlimited free long distance travel", only then will Tesla lose their competitive advantage. And when do you think another car company will do all that? Right now I would say "not in the foreseeable future and quite possibly never" because no car company has ever talked about offering "unlimited free long distance travel" for the long distance EVs they keep talking about but have yet to start building (the GM Bolt is not a long distance EV and it has no effective long distance charging network).
As to ChargePoint offering a "more compelling" network at a price less than what Tesla just announced, I think that is extremely unlikely. They don't have such a network right now, that's for sure.
I suspect your Kwh figure of 142.9 might be a bit high? for a long steady drive, but at 40MPG I suppose you have a point, however unpopular it is in an EV forum. In a cold climate it would even be more pronounced. But how many ICE are 40MPG these days, and I hear the gas price pendulum is expected to swing higher soon, so there is that.
I still think this is a needed change for the better good, but I don't think it will do anything to curb all the local charging currently going on. If anything it might even get worse now that folks with existing cars know just how much it would cost if they didn't have unlimited SC.
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