theslimshadyist
Active Member
Why are you concerned? Don't you have unlimited SC?
I do but I was just curious how this would all work out for those who aren't as fortunate to have free for life charging.
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I do but I was just curious how this would all work out for those who aren't as fortunate to have free for life charging.
Ulmo
Active Member
As I sit here getting 121 amps 344 volts at a Chademo to avoid traffic, I wondered, if Tesla is charging similar to EVGO on monthly plan, and Tesla says they will not be making profit, then how will EVGO make enough money to expand?
SomeJoe7777
Marginally-Known Member
Not really.
Model 3 and 60/70/75 owners charge slower, but they reach the half-price tier 1 rates a lot sooner in the charge cycle. This is due to both the smaller battery size and the lower system voltage (350V vs 400V) compared to the 85/90/100 batteries. Thus, M3/60/70/75 will get below 60 kW much sooner than 85/90/100.
Using the tier 1 and tier 2 rates, Tesla is approximating kWh pricing even though they're actually charging per minute. You're going to pay for approximately the energy you use, no matter how fast or slow you charge.
There are some exceptions, such as a malfunctioning supercharger that delivers a really low charge rate. But these situations would be rare.
The most expensive part of the charge cycle in the per-minute states is the 61-70 kW range. In that range you're paying tier 2 rates, but charging at nearly tier 1 rates. The per-kWh equivalent cost is almost equal to the tier 2 rate in that range, whereas in the 100-120 kW range and 50-60 kW range, the equivalent per-kWh cost is approximately the tier 1 rate.
Example: Texas
Tier 2 (61-120 kW): $0.16/min
Tier 1 (0-60 kW): $0.08/min
Charging at 115 kW: 115 * (1/60) = 1.91 kWh added per minute, cost = $0.16 for that minute. Equivalent energy cost = 0.16 / 1.91 = $0.0834 / kWh.
Charging at 55 kW: 55 * (1/60) = 0.91 kWh added per minute, cost = $0.08 for that minute. Equivalent energy cost = 0.08 / 0.91 = $0.0872 / kWh.
Charging at 65 kW: 65 * (1/60) = 1.08 kWh added per minute, cost = $0.16 for that minute. Equivalent energy cost = 0.16 / 1.08 = $0.1476 / kWh.
SomeJoe7777
Marginally-Known Member
I did a graphical cost analysis of an example supercharge session with per-minute pricing to illustrate how the average cost per kWh levels out during the charge.
This is actual data from a supercharge session from TeslaLog, for an 85D going from 15% SOC to 90% SOC:
Starting charge rate is 116 kW, which is typical, and session length was about 55 minutes.
Using Texas as an example, I took this data and plotted what the costs would be under the new supercharger cost schedule. Texas is a per-minute state with 2 tiers, 16¢/min above 60 kW, and 8¢/min at 60 kW and below.
The costs graph then comes out to look like this:
You can see that the instantaneous cost per kWh (orange) varies between the tier 1 and tier 2 rates, reaching minimums at the highest charge rates in their respective ranges (near 120 kW for tier 2, near but under 60 kW for tier 1). Maximum instantaneous cost per kWh occurs at the minimum charge rates in each range (just over 60 kW for tier 2, near and under 30 kW for tier 1).
However, average cost per kWh (dark blue) levels out during the charge to approach a nearly constant value of about 10.5-11 ¢/kWh. This corresponds with the final numbers from the charge: $6.48 total cost for 58.9 kWh added.
Some important points to realize from this analysis:
This is actual data from a supercharge session from TeslaLog, for an 85D going from 15% SOC to 90% SOC:
Starting charge rate is 116 kW, which is typical, and session length was about 55 minutes.
Using Texas as an example, I took this data and plotted what the costs would be under the new supercharger cost schedule. Texas is a per-minute state with 2 tiers, 16¢/min above 60 kW, and 8¢/min at 60 kW and below.
The costs graph then comes out to look like this:
You can see that the instantaneous cost per kWh (orange) varies between the tier 1 and tier 2 rates, reaching minimums at the highest charge rates in their respective ranges (near 120 kW for tier 2, near but under 60 kW for tier 1). Maximum instantaneous cost per kWh occurs at the minimum charge rates in each range (just over 60 kW for tier 2, near and under 30 kW for tier 1).
However, average cost per kWh (dark blue) levels out during the charge to approach a nearly constant value of about 10.5-11 ¢/kWh. This corresponds with the final numbers from the charge: $6.48 total cost for 58.9 kWh added.
Some important points to realize from this analysis:
- You will not save anything by trying to game the system to force tier 1 or tier 2 charging rates. Telsa is approximating per-kWh costs even though they are selling per-minute.
- Average kWh costs for a long charge approach 1.33x the tier 1 rate.
- Overall costs are very inexpensive: $6.48 for the entire charge for 196.3 rated miles added = average of 3.3 ¢ per rated mile. Compared to a relatively fuel-efficient ICE that gets 32 MPG highway, this is equivalent to paying $1.05 per gallon of gasoline. (This assumes you can achieve rated miles efficiency in the Telsa. Weather/elevation/temperature can affect this and increase cost).
- Per-minute charges are 1/4 to 1/3 of idle charges (40 ¢/min). Moving the car when charging is completed is far more important than worrying about how much you're paying to charge!
owen.shift
Member
owen.shift
Member
We don't know that yet. My guess is there will be some sort of add-on, at least for performance models.
skitch23
Member
Thank you for the visualization with the graphs!
I'm not familiar with charge times on a classic 60, but I believe I read that all of Model S's charge at the same "percentage" rate? So using the same scenario, but with a 60 the cost should be the same, correct? So $6.48 for a fill up, but the cost per mile would be worse because you obviously can't travel as far in a 60 as you can in an 85?
This is very important. I think too many people are worried about being charged per kWh vs per min vs variable rates based on charge speed etc. Bottom line is, as @SomeJoe7777 very nicely demonstrated here, the "fuel cost" is cheaper than gasoline. I applaud Tesla for coming up with a fair charge system which is in line with their claim that they do not intend to make SuperChargers profit centers.
SomeJoe7777
Marginally-Known Member
Not quite. Not all Model S's charge at the same percentage rate. I haven't done analysis for a 60, but I think we can infer that:
- Total session cost will be slightly lower because you won't be taking on as many kWh.
- Avg ¢/kWh for the session are likely to be somewhat higher because the 60 cannot charge as fast = less average kWh per minute over the charging session.
- ¢/rated mile is probably higher because it's directly related to ¢/kWh.
For the different variants of the model S, there will be a few that will have (relatively small) advantages and disadvantages due to their battery setup:
- 40s can't supercharge, so they are N/A
- Old 60s are at a disadvantage because they charge slowly = higher avg ¢/kWh, and also because they will need to charge to more than 90% in many cases to reach the next supercharger. Charging over 90% gets more expensive since the charge rate slows even further.
- New 60s are at an advantage. They are a software-limited 75, and as such can maintain higher avg charge rates throughout the charge = lower ¢/kWh. If these need to charge to more than 90% to reach the next supercharger, they can do so much quicker than an old 60.
- Old A-pack 85s are at a disadvantage, they are limited to 90 kW maximum = higher avg ¢/kWh
- Newer 90 and 100 packs are at an advantage: They maintain higher charging rates longer = lower avg ¢/kWh.
Also remember that this analysis is only applicable to those states where you pay ¢/min. In all states where you pay ¢/kWh, everything is even.
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Incorrect. All A pack 85s are grandfathered into fee-less supercharging.
SomeJoe7777
Marginally-Known Member
Unless they get resold as CPO.
Also applies to old 60s resold as CPO.I'm assuming that if a previously grandfathered free-supercharging vehicle goes through the CPO program after 1/15/2017 (e.g. traded in or lease ended), that it will no longer have free supercharging but will instead have the pay-for-supercharging program like new vehicles. If this isn't the case, then yes, those advantage/disadvantage considerations would never apply.
Maybe we need to watch the CPO pages to see if Tesla advertises the vehicles as "with free for life supercharging" or not.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Unless they get resold as CPO.
I'm assuming that if a previously grandfathered free-supercharging vehicle goes through the CPO program after 1/15/2017 (e.g. traded in or lease ended), that it will no longer have free supercharging but will instead have the pay-for-supercharging program like new vehicles. If this isn't the case, then yes, those advantage/disadvantage considerations would never apply.
Maybe we need to watch the CPO pages to see if Tesla advertises the vehicles as "with free for life supercharging" or not.
Incorrect ... Tesla’s Certified Pre-Owned vehicles still have unlimited free Supercharging, says Tesla President
Tesla confirmed that you will still be able to get the perk with its Certified Pre-Owned (CPOs) vehicles if they were originally purchased with Supercharging access.
It wasn’t exactly clear since Tesla had removed any mention of Supercharging from all the listings on its CPO website after the announcement of the new ‘Supercharging Credit’ program, but Tesla’s President of Sales, Jon McNeill, confirmed the information on Twitter today. He confirmed that “all Teslas purchased with Supercharging for life carry that benefit for the life of the car
dgpcolorado
high altitude member
And all of the old 60s should be grandfathered as well, although the handful that don't yet have Supercharger access might be exceptions.
The only cars that should be subject to paid Supercharging ought to be new 60s, 75s, 90s (for as long as Tesla keeps selling them) and 100s. All of these figure to be rather fast at Supercharging compared to my old 60, which is very slow.
SomeJoe7777
Marginally-Known Member
Excellent, then that simplifies things. Newer 60s, 75s, 90s, and 100s will then be the only vehicles (currently) subject to the pay-for-supercharging, and all of them charge faster than the exceptions I had listed above.
skitch23
Member
This is what I was looking at... http://i.imgur.com/J1GoBSn.gif
I guess its not exactly the same percentage rate, but looks fairly close.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
lagann has stories about that.I like how it mentions supercharging in the rain or snow, but no mention of supercharging during a thunderstorm.
So, my car was hit by lightning at the Grove City, OH supercharger...
I wonder if space X employees are paying idle fees? I was told, but not witnessed that at the last launch, employees were staying at the Marriott in Buellton, and plugged in all night, leaving only several spaces for travelers!
I don't interpret it that way. Any tesla purchased WITH supercharging. CPO though are originally purchased with supercharging for the original owner. The CPO are NOT purchased with supercharging. So it is wholly possible they claim CPO was purchased without supercharging. So we will have to wait and see what other CPO purchaser will say after the cutoff date.
I read the Twitter post as if you do private sale or through a dealer then the free supercharging transfers which makes sense. But through the CPO program it is still up in the air.
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