Supercharging Rock and Hard Place

[Uncle Paul]

Tesla is simply fine tuning their Supercharger network.
They are constantly building new Supercharger locations.
They are also expanding many of the Supercharger locations already in use.
They are speeding up the Superchargers to gain faster through put by increasing power.
They are charging idle fees to get people to move along after charging.
They are limiting charging to 80% where congestion is the worst.

All these solutions make sense to me.

An example is the two locations near Palm Springs. Most of the time they are not full, but when the large outdoor concerts or the Tennis Gardens let out, they get mobbed. No amount of slots would be enough during the highest congestion times. If people would just charge enough to get them down the road to a less congested area, the waits would be much less.

 

[gnuarm]

False. 7 new locations and about 100 stalls added so far this month in California. 12 more locations under constructions in California.

Ok, then the problem is they aren't building ENOUGH new chargers. Ok?

 

[gnuarm]

At least around here most SCs are 100-150 miles apart. It only takes about 15 minutes to gain that much assuming that you arrived with 20-30% remaining. Of course, there are some places where it's 200 miles to the next one, that takes 45 minutes or so.

Your math is not adding up. 150 miles would be around 50% on a 100 kWh battery in a model X. Start at 30% and you reach 80% for that trip. Or are you assuming you will end up at a lower state of charge than you arrived? Either way you will be charging more than 15 minutes I'm pretty sure.

 

[hcdavis3]

That's why I said only fleet use.

Got it jerry. Thanks.

 

[tes-s]

Ok, then the problem is they aren't building ENOUGH new chargers. Ok?

Patience grasshopper, patience.

Your claim that they were doing this INSTEAD of building superchargers was a lie.

You should buy a Bolt or Leaf and use their DC charging network - I think you would be much happier. They do not limit charging % anywhere.

 

[tes-s]

Your math is not adding up.

I get 100 miles added in 15 minutes of charging on my X100.
A M3 LR would get more - about the same kWh and a lot more miles.

 

[67King]

It seems today Tesla announced limitations on some chargers to 80%. Some stations this will be every day, 24 hours. Some stations this will be on special days.

I get what the intent of this is, but clearly this shows how desperate Tesla is. Rather than boosting the number of stalls at busy facilities which is a sure solution, they limit the range of the cars by limiting the amount of charge you can acquire. Yet another indicator of the cash shortage.

Is your last name Einhorn? I'm sorry, but I find this position beyond ridiculous. First of all, the Superchargers are generally put in high traffic areas for convenience. That is usually very valuable real estate. Expanding the number of stalls would be physically impossible in some cases, and financially foolish in others.

Second, adding stalls would be a band aid solution. It would just encourage more owners to do what others are currently doing, now.

Third, Supercharging isn't designed to be used as the primary method for charging one's car. The concept is to allow folks travelling to quickly extend range. Using them as the primary charging means is abusing the system.

What Tesla has done makes the absolute most sense. Have you ever heard of the "80/20 rule?" It is basically that 80% of the work gets done in 20% of the time or by 20% of the people or whatever. Well, charging is the same way. You can get 80% of the charge done in 20% of the time. That means to get 100%, you'd be charging very inefficiently for 80% of the time. That is beyond stupid. The whole crux of the company is to make better use of our resources by using a more efficient means. Well, time is a resource, too.

Agree with the poster who opined that the mistake Tesla made was offering lifetime free Supercharging.

I think that it would be great if Tesla would offer folks the option to charge to 100% on a Supercharger, and charge them $1.00 per kW-hr for all charging over 80%.

 

[tes-s]

Agree with the poster who opined that the mistake Tesla made was offering lifetime free Supercharging.

Don't somewhere between 30% and 50% of the cars sold have free supercharging that will expire in the coming months? I think a lot of the M3 included 6 months of free supercharging. Only the P got it lifetime. Most S and X sold this year don't have lifetime supercharging.

While there are a few that have charging at home and regularly supercharge, I think there are many that will do an "opportunistic" charge - grab a few electrons because they are free. When free supercharging runs out, that may change and lower the demand on superchargers.

Lines at 2% of the 650 superchargers in the US are just not that big a deal. Yes it is inconvenient and a big deal it if affects you, but not the end of civilization as we know it.

 

[gnuarm]

Actually that isn't true. EA puts a single CHAdeMO connector, shared with a CCS connector, at each location. So a location might have 10 CCS and a single combo stall. If that one combo stall is in use or broken and you need CHAdeMO you are out of luck.

Every illustration I can find shows every stall with two connectors. Have you seen this in the wild?

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Every illustration I can find shows every stall with two connectors. Have you seen this in the wild?

They have two cables per stall but only 1 stall has a CHAdeMO plug:

Electrify America Fast Chargers - Huh?

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Every illustration I can find shows every stall with two connectors. Have you seen this in the wild?

Good morning. Leaf driver here. It is less common but it does exist or at least in the US. In Canada it’s always one for one. The Chademo/CCS buildout here is actually much more extensive than Supercharger in BC and growing much more rapidly. However many locations only have one or two heads per locations. Phase 4 of the buildout in 2022 is supppsed to address this. Still, I have never had to wait for a charge yet although I only use Chademo half a dozen to a dozen times a year.

More than half of the installations are also still 50 KW as well although this is changing now. We have a new Leaf SL Eplus with 100 KW charging on order. Hoping to see the 5 Chademo we use most commonly upgraded to 100 KW soon.

By the time we get our model Y the Supercharger network will have significantly improoved and we can do those trips in a Tesla. Woohoo.

 

[jjrandorin]

Don't somewhere between 30% and 50% of the cars sold have free supercharging that will expire in the coming months? I think a lot of the M3 included 6 months of free supercharging. Only the P got it lifetime. Most S and X sold this year don't have lifetime supercharging.

While there are a few that have charging at home and regularly supercharge, I think there are many that will do an "opportunistic" charge - grab a few electrons because they are free. When free supercharging runs out, that may change and lower the demand on superchargers.

Lines at 2% of the 650 superchargers in the US are just not that big a deal. Yes it is inconvenient and a big deal it if affects you, but not the end of civilization as we know it.

I think that the Model 3P's got lifetime supercharging till the end of Q3 of last year. My model 3P (delivery taken 12/04/18, only got 6 months free supercharging.

If I had "unlimited free supercharging" I admit that that I would probably split my time between charging at the supercharger close to me, and at home. I would still have home charging, but I am certain that, sometimes, I would "run over to the supercharger for a free charge, because Its included with my car". If I saw that the supercharger was crowded, I probably would turn around.... maybe. In such a scenario, I would likely stop charging there if it was consistently busy... but be slightly "miffed" that they "sold me on unlimited supercharging and I cant use it".

The problem (as I said) is giving someone something "free" or "included" with their purchase encourages them to use said item to "get value" out of it.

Tesla underestimated the extent people will go to, to get "free" stuff... even if its not very much money.... and even if its not convenient.... and even if THEY have money and can certainly afford the cost of their electricity.



Saying all that, however, I still am very firm in my own personal position of, "every car is not for every person" and "it someone bought the car and cant charge mostly at home (or at least at work), then they made a mistake purchasing this car... and I have little to zero sympathy for people who have to constantly supercharge in such a state. OP states "most of my charging can not be done at home". I have no idea how someone could afford a model X and not be able to charge at home, but /shrug. Maybe there is some good reason other than "I want my free unlimited supercharging, and right now its not convenient for me, so tesla needs to do something more to make it convenient for me... otherwise they are failing"?

 

[Electroman]

Tesla is doing the owners a favor by stopping the super charging at 80%. Because it is much quicker to stop and get that extra 20 or 25 miles in the next SC. So in the end between waiting for 20 minutes to top off the extra 20 miles, or stop by at the next SC and get it in 5 minutes, Tesla is helping people make that decision easy.

For those that say there is a long line to get to a charger, this will actually eliminate that waiting queue if everyone in those busy SCs get going after 80%

 

[Rottenapplr]

Exactly. It would be super annoying if there’s a line at a supercharger and some douche (or more than one douche) is charging to 100%.

I say up the idle fee as well so that owners are back in their cars and ready to go ASAP. As others have said in high restate areas it would be bad practice to build large superchargers in New York City or Downtown LA. They really should have large superchargers outside the city to facilitate road trips.

And more level 2 tesla destination in grocery store malls, CVS, Targets, Trader Joe’s, Walmart’s etc...

I only supercharger on road trips so the 80% limit caught me off guard when I discovered it but it makes sense to me. I haven’t supercharged since the first week I got the car in late April. I personally like to charge up to 80 because I don’t like the idea of arriving to my destination with 15% of soc.

 

[Rottenapplr]

I think that the Model 3P's got lifetime supercharging till the end of Q3 of last year. My model 3P (delivery taken 12/04/18, only got 6 months free supercharging.

If I had "unlimited free supercharging" I admit that that I would probably split my time between charging at the supercharger close to me, and at home. I would still have home charging, but I am certain that, sometimes, I would "run over to the supercharger for a free charge, because Its included with my car". If I saw that the supercharger was crowded, I probably would turn around.... maybe. In such a scenario, I would likely stop charging there if it was consistently busy... but be slightly "miffed" that they "sold me on unlimited supercharging and I cant use it".

The problem (as I said) is giving someone something "free" or "included" with their purchase encourages them to use said item to "get value" out of it.

Tesla underestimated the extent people will go to, to get "free" stuff... even if its not very much money.... and even if its not convenient.... and even if THEY have money and can certainly afford the cost of their electricity.



Saying all that, however, I still am very firm in my own personal position of, "every car is not for every person" and "it someone bought the car and cant charge mostly at home (or at least at work), then they made a mistake purchasing this car... and I have little to zero sympathy for people who have to constantly supercharge in such a state. OP states "most of my charging can not be done at home". I have no idea how someone could afford a model X and not be able to charge at home, but /shrug. Maybe there is some good reason other than "I want my free unlimited supercharging, and right now its not convenient for me, so tesla needs to do something more to make it convenient for me... otherwise they are failing"?

Lol tesla should do what at&t do to iPhone unlimited data plan users. Like limit free lifetime supercharging to 60% lol. I’m gonna get dislikes in this post I bet!!!

 

[jerry33]

Your math is not adding up. 150 miles would be around 50% on a 100 kWh battery in a model X. Start at 30% and you reach 80% for that trip. Or are you assuming you will end up at a lower state of charge than you arrived? Either way you will be charging more than 15 minutes I'm pretty sure.

I tend to end up with about the same percentage left (20-30%). Probably depends on how you drive and the weather. 150 miles uses about 40 kWh of energy. The more common 100 miles, uses about 25 kWh of energy. (Assumes nice weather an not too much wind.)

 

[Uncle Paul]

Bonus is that charging up to 80% is much easier on the batteries than constantly charging up to 100% at every stop.

People need to be responsible when charging at a Supercharger with a waiting line. Get the juice you need and be on your way. Try not to be a stall hog...

 

[Rottenapplr]

Bonus is that charging up to 80% is much easier on the batteries than constantly charging up to 100% at every stop.

People need to be responsible when charging at a Supercharger with a waiting line. Get the juice you need and be on your way. Try not to be a stall hog...

Agreed but how many people are raised with the value of consideration of others needs. It’s less and less these days in my opinion and more about me me me. Sometimes companies have to push people to make their decision for them.

 

[gnuarm]

Tesla is doing the owners a favor by stopping the super charging at 80%. Because it is much quicker to stop and get that extra 20 or 25 miles in the next SC. So in the end between waiting for 20 minutes to top off the extra 20 miles, or stop by at the next SC and get it in 5 minutes, Tesla is helping people make that decision easy.

For those that say there is a long line to get to a charger, this will actually eliminate that waiting queue if everyone in those busy SCs get going after 80%

First, this doesn't apply to cars on trips when the in car navigator tells them to stop to charge. So in those cases it does nothing. Second, when I am on trips, my goal isn't to reduce the time charging to a minimum. It is to minimize my trip time. If I need an hour to take a meal break, then it is actually counter productive to have to stop in the middle of my meal, run out to the car to move it when done charging, then return to the restaurant to finish my meal.

There is nothing to support the claim this will "actually eliminate that waiting queue". I think Gaithersburg, MD is a good example. People charge there because it is a convenient spot with shopping and many facilities. Since there is not actually anything to prevent you from gathering 100% charge I expect people will still charge and shop/eat like they have always done. Quartzsite, AZ is a point that is nearly impossible to avoid driving between LA and Phoenix. With nothing to do there and very little local charging, I can't imagine anyone is going to charge any longer than they need to get to Indio or Buckeye.

 

[gnuarm]

They have two cables per stall but only 1 stall has a CHAdeMO plug:

Electrify America Fast Chargers - Huh?

Yes, I see what you mean. I did a survey on Plugshare and just like claimed, nearly all Electrify America installations have some number of CCS chargers and 1 Chademo. I guess the Asian EV makers are going to get a raw deal. I wonder if they will switch charger types in cars shipped to the US anytime soon?