Supercharging Rock and Hard Place

[tes-s]

There is nothing to support the claim this will "actually eliminate that waiting queue".

Tesla did this for a reason. They know who is charging and for how long. It will make a difference.

I'm glad you are not running Tesla.

 

[tes-s]

I'm getting worried about Tesla continuing to build Superchargers at all

Fear not, my friend, fear not. The buildout continues. Lots under construction and permitted in the US and worldwide.

 

[gnuarm]

Saying all that, however, I still am very firm in my own personal position of, "every car is not for every person" and "it someone bought the car and cant charge mostly at home (or at least at work), then they made a mistake purchasing this car... and I have little to zero sympathy for people who have to constantly supercharge in such a state. OP states "most of my charging can not be done at home". I have no idea how someone could afford a model X and not be able to charge at home, but /shrug. Maybe there is some good reason other than "I want my free unlimited supercharging, and right now its not convenient for me, so tesla needs to do something more to make it convenient for me... otherwise they are failing"?

It's an issue of not needing much charge when at home. I do very little local driving there. I often take trips, weekly in fact. The shorter trips are 120 miles each way with a couple days of local driving at the other end. So I pretty much always need to charge before returning.

I used to top off at my end of the short trip, but that didn't buy me much especially in the winter when starting with a full tank at home I would not even be able to make it to the midway charger on the return trip. So my routine now is to charge in both directions on the road to try to avoid a special 25 mile drive to charge while away from home. Last night the traffic on the DC highways was not so bad allowing me to charge at Gaithersburg, MD where they seem to be enforcing the 80% charge default. I ended up charging to 93% to avoid idle fees while I ate and used the restroom.

I almost completely avoided this problem. I wanted to load the kayak in the truck and get on the water this weekend. But I have a tight muscle in my back and thought it wasn't a good idea. In the truck I would have not needed to even stop once on this round trip since it has a 400+ mile range. Then there is the fact that ICE Ultrachargers are on nearly every street corner. They charge at around 10 megawatts I hear.

 

[TMThree]

I don't really see this as a big deal since (1) it only affects a small part of the chargers that are already overcrowded

Last night I was in Ft Myers and Sarasota, and all 3 chargers I visited had a 80% limit on them. Despite that there was no other cars and it was past midnight.

the fact that you can defeat the 80% limit currently doesn't mean you can in the future.

 

[ucmndd]

I wonder if a better approach would be to apply a “range charging” surcharge that ~doubles the cost of electricity over 80%.

Might be more effective and equitable than the current approach, although the level of pearl clutching would likely be even higher.

 

[gnuarm]

Exactly. It would be super annoying if there’s a line at a supercharger and some douche (or more than one douche) is charging to 100%.

Here's another issue. Everybody's analysis is about local charging or charging on trips as if there is always a conveniently located charger where you are going. Even the in car navigator will route you to a destination with only 15% left in your battery without regard to getting to a charger after your trip is done.

On one of my longer trips my last opportunity to charge is Knoxville, TN. From there to my destination is over 60 miles. If I don't put as much charge on the car as I can, I won't be able to do the local driving I need and return to a useful charger. I may not charge to 100%, but I always charge to at least 90% there.

I say up the idle fee as well so that owners are back in their cars and ready to go ASAP. As others have said in high restate areas it would be bad practice to build large superchargers in New York City or Downtown LA. They really should have large superchargers outside the city to facilitate road trips.

And more level 2 tesla destination in grocery store malls, CVS, Targets, Trader Joe’s, Walmart’s etc...

I only supercharger on road trips so the 80% limit caught me off guard when I discovered it but it makes sense to me. I haven’t supercharged since the first week I got the car in late April. I personally like to charge up to 80 because I don’t like the idea of arriving to my destination with 15% of soc.

So you want someone, I assume Tesla, to install lots of new L2 chargers in shopping areas, but the idea of adding more Superchargers to relieve the congestion areas is not a good idea???

Considering that L2 chargers operate at less than a tenth the rate of a Supercharger and that the L2 chargers can't possibly replace a Supercharger on trips, there really is no comparison and the Superchargers are more cost effective.

 

[MP3Mike]

Every illustration I can find shows every stall with two connectors. Have you seen this in the wild?

They do, but you can only use one plug at a time, and all but one plug is CCS. (They say the extra plug is there to make it easier to reach the port on your car. It probably also serves as a backup if one is damaged.)

 

[mike123abc]

I wonder if a better approach would be to apply a “range charging” surcharge that ~doubles the cost of electricity over 80%.

Might be more effective and equitable than the current approach, although the level of pearl clutching would likely be even higher.

Actually it already does that in a lot of the country. Where I am at it is 23 cents for over 60 KW and 12 cents below. So at 60 KW you are getting 1 kwh every minute, or paying 12 cents per kwh. At 80% you are running about 35 kw or less so you are paying almost 2x, at 90 you run 25kw approaching 3x. At 95 it runs about 6 kwh. So at 95% you are paying almost 10x per kwh than you do at 70% when most charging crosses the 60 kwh mark.

This is all based on long range model 3 150 kwh supercharging as graphed: 150kW Supercharging for Model 3

Note that the short range gets charged even more since the kw drops faster

Of course the real bargain is from about 15 to 45% where you get upwards of 150 kw or pay around 9 cents per kwh.

 

[MP3Mike]

I wonder if a better approach would be to apply a “range charging” surcharge that ~doubles the cost of electricity over 80%.

Double free is still free...

 

[gnuarm]

I tend to end up with about the same percentage left (20-30%). Probably depends on how you drive and the weather. 150 miles uses about 40 kWh of energy. The more common 100 miles, uses about 25 kWh of energy. (Assumes nice weather an not too much wind.)

Still, 40 kW in 15 minutes is 160 kW which is much more than any charger I've seen will do. I guess that's the high end of your point and not 15 minutes, still, those numbers all assume perfect charging (not sharing a pair) and a model 3 I suppose. It is also based on always having a convenient charger when you need a charge. My travels take me by Superchargers only on the road and if I don't charge fully, I often don't have enough to reach a Supercharger and either have to drive out of my way or stop at an L2 charger.

I think yesterday even with the highway driving I saw my trip usage was significantly below 333 Wh/mi which is unusual in a model X. I still had 36% when I stopped to charge. I've got 82% now and there's a chance I might have enough to not stop to charge on the way home if I don't do much local driving this weekend. That will be a first I think.

 

[ucmndd]

Actually it already does that in a lot of the country. Where I am at it is 23 cents for over 60 KW and 12 cents below. So at 60 KW you are getting 1 kwh every minute, or paying 12 cents per kwh. At 80% you are running about 35 kw or less so you are paying almost 2x, at 90 you run 25kw approaching 3x. At 95 it runs about 6 kwh. So at 95% you are paying almost 10x per kwh than you do at 70% when most charging crosses the 60 mark.

This is all based on long range model 3 150 kwh supercharging as graphed: 150kW Supercharging for Model 3

Note that the short range gets charged even more since the kw drops faster

Yeah, I’m aware of the time-based pricing where monopoly-protecting laws prevent Tesla from charging by the kWh. I DON’T think that’s the best way to do things, but I DO imagine it’s very effective at keeping people from sitting around any longer than absolutely necessary at high states of charge.

 

[gnuarm]

Agreed but how many people are raised with the value of consideration of others needs. It’s less and less these days in my opinion and more about me me me. Sometimes companies have to push people to make their decision for them.

Perhaps knowing a bit of psychology would help. When people perceive a shortage, they react very differently. That is exactly the situation when there are lines waiting to charge. I expect many people on this forum aren't old enough to recall the days of gasoline rationing and odd/even license numbering. Pity on those with personalized tags. My dad drove 100 miles round trip to work. He started talking about putting in a 200 gal gas tank in the yard.

So yeah, when charging resources become scarce, people start thinking about me, me, me.

 

[darth_vad3r]

I think yesterday even with the highway driving I saw my trip usage was significantly below 333 Wh/mi which is unusual in a model X. I still had 36% when I stopped to charge. I've got 82% now and there's a chance I might have enough to not stop to charge on the way home if I don't do much local driving this weekend. That will be a first I think.

You’ve got 12-24 or 36 hours of overnight L1 charging opportunities on a weekend trip. Use it. Even at 3mph that’s 36, 72, or 108 miles added.

 

[gnuarm]

You’ve got 12-24 or 36 hours of overnight L1 charging opportunities on a weekend trip. Use it. Even at 3mph that’s 36, 72, or 108 miles added.

I appreciate the life advice. I will give it all the consideration it is due.

 

[darth_vad3r]

when I am on trips, my goal isn't to reduce the time charging to a minimum. It is to minimize my trip time. If I need an hour to take a meal break, then it is actually counter productive to have to stop in the middle of my meal, run out to the car to move it when done charging, then return to the restaurant to finish my meal.

A) That is a problem, and Tesla’s trying to correct it. Everyone’s goal SHOULD be to minimize your charge time for the benefit of all other SC users.
B) If you are at a half empty charger you can charge to 100% and sit idle and enjoy your meal, fine. If it’s busy Tesla wants you to interrupt your precious meal break to let someone else use the SC. That seems abundantly fair to me.

I’d be super pissed if I just needed 15 minutes to get to my destination and you were inside waiting for the waiter to bring you dessert instead of coming out to move your car (ESPECIALLY so if it was all so you could avoid doing some overnight L1 charging at the destination of your trip which could have added that 10-20% anyways).

 

[67King]

Wasnt there at some point a drive for Tesla to use AP to move unoccupied cars to free up SC spots?

Anyway, be careful with anecdotes. There are all kinds of reasons people keep their cars parked there past 80%. Some are having a long lunch break, some are trying to milk the system, some are trying to avoid multiple stops while on a trip.

Similarly, not everyone has the same time constraints, either.

Disagree with the theory that today's myopic culture is driven strictly by scarcity. And I use the term myopic deliberately, as I do not believe it is pure selfishness. There are a lot of factors, part of it is that we've had a lot of economic success that has prevented my generation at least from learning what real sacrifice is. Part of it is that technology has made information extremely easy to obtain. Ditto entertainment. After all, that extra car length of space is hardly scarce, but people still don't leave it in order to let someone pull their car out of a business and turn the opposite direction when the red light is there.

 

[jerry33]

Still, 40 kW in 15 minutes is 160 kW which is much more than any charger I've seen will do. I guess that's the high end of your point and not 15 minutes, still, those numbers all assume perfect charging (not sharing a pair) and a model 3 I suppose. It is also based on always having a convenient charger when you need a charge. My travels take me by Superchargers only on the road and if I don't charge fully, I often don't have enough to reach a Supercharger and either have to drive out of my way or stop at an L2 charger.

I think yesterday even with the highway driving I saw my trip usage was significantly below 333 Wh/mi which is unusual in a model X. I still had 36% when I stopped to charge. I've got 82% now and there's a chance I might have enough to not stop to charge on the way home if I don't do much local driving this weekend. That will be a first I think.

I was actually doing it based on my S85 and a energy usage number of 260 Wh/mi (which might be high). But honestly, most of my charging stops are very close to 15 minutes unless there is a long distance to the next one or there is bad weather.

 

[sperkin]

It's still an honor system. When you plug in it changes your charge limit to 80%. Just set it back to 100% while charging if you want to stay longer.

 

[darth_vad3r]

It's still an honor system. When you plug in it changes your charge limit to 80%. Just set it back to 100% while charging if you want to stay longer.

I wonder if the charger will still stop at 80 anyways though.

 

[tes-s]

I wonder if the charger will still stop at 80 anyways though.

Not as of now. May change in the future.