Supercharging to be uncoupled for new owners - lowering price of S/X

[Az_Rael]

Why would that be a problem? It's an option like pano roof or other options. Just because it came included with some cars it doesn't make it more difficult to sort out. You'll likely be able to see whether the car has that option by looking at the 8.x charging screen. CPO market has dealt with it with S60's and there you actually have to call Tesla to verify (or plug into a SC).

Because when you commit to buy a CPO from Tesla, you don't get to see the car in person until delivery day. Even Tesla sales reps don't always know the full set of options on the car. So you don't find out for sure until delivery day, which a pretty high stress day to be rejecting a vehicle if you had expected the option or to try and negotiate that Tesla add it on the due bill.

 

[RogerHScott]

If you had to pay between $0.30 and $1 per KWh

.. you'd be paying significantly more per mile than driving in ICE at today's gas prices. Not the strongest marketing point.
I could see maybe capping that at equal to current gas-based per-mile prices, so the story would effectively be "cheaper for
your typical around-town driving, and same as ICE on the highway".

 

[MSEV]

No, you didn't pay extra. EVERY 85D came with supercharging in the base price, as did every 70, 75, 85, and 90 (D or not). The only car to have a $2000 option to enable supercharging was the original 60.

It looks like I stand corrected. Hard to believe, that I don't remember that correctly, but the evidence is there. I think what I did, a couple years ago, was I started out thinking I was going to buy a 60. To add the SpCing was $2000. I eventually ordered an 85 (no D option yet at that time). Then D came out, Tesla allowed me to upgrade (with an added few months more waiting). So I did not add an option of $2000 to get SpC to the 85D. I think I believed that I paid for that option included in other options (likely, in my mind, for the $10,000 upgrade from 60 to 85). So I did not, as I have just now with help figured out what I did two years ago, order an option for SpCing, mine came with the upgraded model I ordered.
So I believe I was correct in stating Tesla has had models without SpCing that also could be ordered with it and even updated aftermarket (for additional cost later). They do have some history of how this has worked.
But I was incorrect in what I said about adding a $2000 option in ordering an 85D and how I said it and hope I haven't confused anyone.
I also believe I paid for that feature (to have SpCing) elsewhere in my costs, that Tesla didn't give it to me for free.
Am I incorrect in that assumption?

 

[MP3Mike]

How would Tesla track sales of used vehicles years later and turn it off? Is there anything comparable today to this? The only thing I can think of is when Sirius offered a lifetime subscription, but that isn't the automaker but a separate service, and it survives transfer of the vehicle unless the new owner calls Sirius if there is problem - then they might turn it off. But I can't think of anything else.

Easy, when the new owner ask Tesla to move the car to their account. The only way to avoid that is if the seller gives the new owner the account with the car. Which if the seller had multiple Teslas could be a problem.

 

[Cloxxki]

For new cars, Tesla could restrict SC access to chargers closely located to the car's "home". A simple algorythm could be written in GPS input to decide which SC is the (off-limits) home base. This forces people to have home charging set up, obviously an impossible hurdle to some.
Another option is to make the local SC's accessible only a number of times per year, for eventualities.

 

[Panu]

For new cars, Tesla could restrict SC access to chargers closely located to the car's "home". A simple algorythm could be written in GPS input to decide which SC is the (off-limits) home base. This forces people to have home charging set up, obviously an impossible hurdle to some.
Another option is to make the local SC's accessible only a number of times per year, for eventualities.

They should be accessible of course but you would have to pay per kWh for local supercharging. The algorithm cannot be perfect and there would always be owners going mad because they have to pay $1 for supercharging near home when returning from a road trip etc. That's why Tesla may decide to stop offering the lifetime plan.

But if the algorithm would be applied I don't see any reason why current owners would be treated differently.

 

[Canuck]

Easy, when the new owner ask Tesla to move the car to their account. The only way to avoid that is if the seller gives the new owner the account with the car.

I don't see it as "easy". Why would the new owner have to ask them to move it their account? They probably won't even have an account. The seller can simply change the email associate with their account to that of the new owner. Since people could likely get a lot more money for an old Tesla if it had unlimited supercharging I bet they will become creative in ways to try to game the system. That's why I see it as a problem that Tesla would like to avoid.

I liked the answer posted above of active for 10 years but even that would piss me off if I planned to own my car more than 10 years. Maybe after that time you have to provide Tesla with your registration papers to keep it active? Again, though, just more problems and headaches for Tesla to administer.

 

[ohmman]

I don't see it as "easy". Why would the new owner have to ask them to move it their account? They probably won't even have an account. The seller can simply change the email associate with their account to that of the new owner. Since people could likely get a lot more money for an old Tesla if it had unlimited supercharging I bet they will become creative in ways to try to game the system. That's why I see it as a problem that Tesla would like to avoid.

I liked the answer posted above of active for 10 years but even that would piss me off if I planned to own my car more than 10 years. Maybe after that time you have to provide Tesla with your registration papers to keep it active? Again, though, just more problems and headaches for Tesla to administer.

I think Tesla's going to require an account to have access to Supercharging, free-for-life or not. Idle fees need to be charged somehow. So yeah, I think this would still work and be "easy".

 

[stopcrazypp]

For new cars, Tesla could restrict SC access to chargers closely located to the car's "home". A simple algorythm could be written in GPS input to decide which SC is the (off-limits) home base. This forces people to have home charging set up, obviously an impossible hurdle to some.
Another option is to make the local SC's accessible only a number of times per year, for eventualities.

I think the debacle with the local charging warning letter scared Tesla away from doing that. There would be a lot of complaining if there is a false positive (even with that letter, some people were offended; a complete ban would bring a lot more outrage), and I don't think Tesla has confidence they can get even close to eliminating all false positives.

This plan neatly solves that headache. Personally I'm more in favor of making some stations (the most congested stations that locals would use) paid and keeping the long distance ones free. This plan doesn't eliminate that possibility, but chances might be slim given the extra complexity.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Why would that be a problem? It's an option like pano roof or other options. Just because it came included with some cars it doesn't make it more difficult to sort out. You'll likely be able to see whether the car has that option by looking at the 8.x charging screen. CPO market has dealt with it with S60's and there you actually have to call Tesla to verify (or plug into a SC).

Because when you commit to buy a CPO from Tesla, you don't get to see the car in person until delivery day. Even Tesla sales reps don't always know the full set of options on the car. So you don't find out for sure until delivery day, which a pretty high stress day to be rejecting a vehicle if you had expected the option or to try and negotiate that Tesla add it on the due bill.

At the present time all CPOs are Supercharger enabled, so far as I am aware. That could well change once lifetime Supercharging becomes optional on new S and X sales, but it isn't the case now.

I could see all cars taken in for the CPO program in the future having lifetime Supercharging offered as an extra cost option even if the car had been grandfathered into the old "free for the life of the car" system; once Tesla buys it back they can do what they want with the car. The rationale is the same as for new cars: if you want unlimited Supercharging you can buy it, otherwise you can use the new (pre)pay as you go system.

The problem, as several others have mentioned upthread, is that the lack of the big upfront option fee reduces the capital to pay for expanding the Supercharger network. That being the case, I would expect the charge per kWh to be significantly more than the cost of electricity. Even PPU customers need to pay for the building and maintenance of the Supercharger network.

I mentioned in another thread awhile back: Supercharging access isn't about fuel cost, it is about the greatly enhanced utility of the car in that it can take long road trips, unlike other EVs. That's a paradigm shift in EV utility and it has a value over and above the simple cost of the option or the cost per kWh.

 

[whitex]

Because when you commit to buy a CPO from Tesla, you don't get to see the car in person until delivery day. Even Tesla sales reps don't always know the full set of options on the car. So you don't find out for sure until delivery day, which a pretty high stress day to be rejecting a vehicle if you had expected the option or to try and negotiate that Tesla add it on the due bill.

First, are you serious? So when you buy a CPO it's the proverbial "cat in a bag"? Sounds like a bigger problem than figuring out supercharging - having to track this option on all cars rather than only S60's is not going to make things any worse. Second, lifetime supercharing is probably the easiest for Tesla as it is a software only option, so if they advertise the car with it and it doesn't have it, all they have to do is a quick software upgrade. Alternatively they can strip this options from all CPO's and simply make it a CPO add-on option.

 

[ohmman]

The problem, as several others have mentioned upthread, is that the lack of the big upfront option fee reduces the capital to pay for expanding the Supercharger network. That being the case, I would expect the charge per kWh to be significantly more than the cost of electricity. Even PPU customers need to pay for the building and maintenance of the Supercharger network.

I mentioned in another thread awhile back: Supercharging access isn't about fuel cost, it is about the greatly enhanced utility of the car in that it can take long road trips, unlike other EVs. That's a paradigm shift in EV utility and it has a value over and above the simple cost of the option or the cost per kWh.

Yes, yes, yes.

I do, however, maintain that a portion of the margin on each vehicle sold will be earmarked for Supercharger buildout, regardless of the plan chosen. As you mention, it does reduce the size of the balloon of capital received up front, but I am confident that they'll make sure to continue the expansion at the same rate.

 

[whitex]

.. you'd be paying significantly more per mile than driving in ICE at today's gas prices. Not the strongest marketing point.
I could see maybe capping that at equal to current gas-based per-mile prices, so the story would effectively be "cheaper for
your typical around-town driving, and same as ICE on the highway".

When I look at paid chargers (L2 and even Chademo), a lot of them work out to be $0.50+ per kwh, so this marketing perception issue already exists. That said, I agree that equivalent to ICE may be a good idea ($0.30 to $0.50). At $0.50 it would take 2 coast to coast round trips to break even on the $2000 option.

PS> If figuring out "equivalent to ICE" they ought to consider not just price of gas, but also additives like CA has which have caused all my cars in the past to burn 30% more gas (I used to live there, whenever I filled up outside of CA, my gas consumption went down noticeably).

 

[Canuck]

I think Tesla's going to require an account to have access to Supercharging, free-for-life or not. Idle fees need to be charged somehow. So yeah, I think this would still work and be "easy".

What do you mean by an "account" if it's still free for life? I look at the word "account" as having a payment option so it's tied to a credit card or other type of payment. If it's free for life then no payment is needed and isn't that what we already have. Tesla knows my "account" with them whenever I plug my car into a supercharger, and they even send me an alert when it gets close to full. The app is also tied to my account. Why can't I just transfer that "account" to the new owner when I sell my car...? How can that be easily stopped?

You've lost me on this one but I'm all ears since I really hope there will be free for life option on my next Tesla, like my current one. I just can't seem to reconcile how then can do that "easily".

(As I type this from the Blue Moose coffee house during my travels while my car is supercharging... the only one when I arrived at the 6 supercharger station in Hope BC, on a long weekend... who said there's a concern of full superchargers?! )

 

[ohmman]

What do you mean by an "account" if it's still free for life? I look at the word "account" as having a payment option so it's tied to a credit card or other type of payment. If it's free for life then no payment is needed and isn't that what we already have. Tesla knows my "account" with them whenever I plug my car into a supercharger, and they even send me an alert when it gets close to full. The app is also tied to my account. Why can't I just transfer that "account" to the new owner when I sell my car...? How can that be easily stopped?

You've lost me on this one but I'm all ears since I really hope there will be free for life option on my next Tesla, like my current one. I just can't seem to reconcile how then can do that "easily".

(As I type this from the Blue Moose coffee house during my travels while my car is supercharging... the only one when I arrived at the 6 supercharger station in Hope BC, on a long weekend... who said there's a concern of full superchargers?! )

What I'm saying is that I think that we're going to see a change. Based on the leak, we know there could be a thing called an "idle charge". How will they charge that if you don't have an account? Do lifetime Supercharger owners somehow get a pass on it? Maybe they do, but I doubt it. I think they'll make all of us have an account to pay for potential idling. By the fact that they require an account, it means they can track ownership very easily.

To facilitate this, 8.0 might have the functionality to check if a VIN has an account associated with it. Supercharging wouldn't proceed unless it did.

I want to reiterate that this is pure speculation, and none of it might be true, or some, or all. But probably none. I'm just trying to show how it could be "easily" done.

 

[whitex]

I just can't seem to reconcile how then can do that "easily".

As one example, go check out how TiVo handles their subscriptions including lifetime. Seems pretty easy and straightforward. You can pay monthly, annually, or buy a lifetime which stays with the hardware box, but whoever buys it from you needs to register it on their own account to keep using it for free.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yes, yes, yes.

I do, however, maintain that a portion of the margin on each vehicle sold will be earmarked for Supercharger buildout, regardless of the plan chosen. As you mention, it does reduce the size of the balloon of capital received up front, but I am confident that they'll make sure to continue the expansion at the same rate.

I've made a similar point elsewhere. From Tesla's SEC filings, build out of popular stations is funded entirely from a cut out of the margin, while stations in low demand areas are funded as advertising (which indirectly comes out of vehicle sales anyways). So no matter what, Tesla is taking a cut out of the car sales revenue anyways for supercharger purposes. What the "unbundling" might do is introduce a lower margin entry level vehicle, which might have an effect on the overall average margin Tesla takes in, but given those stripped entry level models typically don't sell very much, I doubt it has that huge an effect overall.

 

[Footer]

According to WK057 there is 1 bit in the program code that is switched on to give you supercharger access. That bit will stay on for the life of the car for those of use who already have lifetime SC. If the car is ever sold to Tesla, they can switch the bit off if they wish.

Tesla can write an algorithm that can do almost anything you can think of to switch the bit on or off for those cars than don't have lifetime access. They are already monitoring every car individually so it would be easy to change the log, or the appropriate part of the program code, to add supercharger credits, credit card info, or whatever they need to enable and disable access.

 

[stopcrazypp]

According to WK057 there is 1 bit in the program code that is switched on to give you supercharger access. That bit will stay on for the life of the car for those of use who already have lifetime SC. If the car is ever sold to Tesla, they can switch the bit off if they wish.

Tesla can write an algorithm that can do almost anything you can think of to switch the bit on or off for those cars than don't have lifetime access. They are already monitoring every car individually so it would be easy to change the log, or the appropriate part of the program code, to add supercharger credits, credit card info, or whatever they need to enable and disable access.

That would be an entirely client side solution. There is also speculation if they would do anything server side. Currently the vehicle transmits VIN information to the supercharger, but the supercharger doesn't do anything with that information. Tesla can also implement a blacklist or whitelist or some other realtime authorization on the supercharger side.

 

[Footer]

Doing something on the supercharger side would solve problems a loss of internet might cause.