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Supercharging to reduce ownership cost of a Model S.
- Thread starter No2DinosaurFuel
- Start date
smsprague
Member
It took so long that I talked to almost all the people there. That being said it was kinda fun. Saw some interesting mods, got a good demo of the UHF sound ( convinced me I need a subwoofer) and got a few good restaurant recommendations.
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Well the point is to see if there is a good reason not to charge like i plan to charge. So far there has not been a good reason against it... At least for my situation
Wait, what?
Your title of your thread is: "Supercharging to reduce ownership cost of a Model S."
Quotes from your original post:
It's very difficult for one to not think of this as you "saving a few bucks".
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I would pick the 14-50 route or even the 110V and supercharge occasionally route than this. While you can try to justify that the station right now is not busy enough for this to inconvenience other people so you can save a few bucks, plenty of people will still think less of you.
While Tesla does not prohibit doing so (thus you can go right ahead and do so) most of the supercharger network as it stands is NOT designed for daily charging usage (with the exception of some stations built in cities outside the US that are explicitly for this purpose).
And the cost of supercharging for daily travel is most definitely not figured into the cost of the car. Rather, Tesla only expects a fraction of the miles of a typical driver to be on superchargers (as is the case for the average fleet, which I believe is still well under 10% of miles).
EV charging rates mid/off-peak in your area is about $0.10/kWh (this ignores demand charges) or $3.4 per 100 miles, over a 150k mile lifespan that still works out to $5100 in electricity. This is already way over the oft-quoted $2000 supposed premium for supercharging (which no longer exists).
https://www.sce.com/wps/portal/home/regulatory/tariff-books/rates-pricing-choices/business-rates/
While Tesla does not prohibit doing so (thus you can go right ahead and do so) most of the supercharger network as it stands is NOT designed for daily charging usage (with the exception of some stations built in cities outside the US that are explicitly for this purpose).
And the cost of supercharging for daily travel is most definitely not figured into the cost of the car. Rather, Tesla only expects a fraction of the miles of a typical driver to be on superchargers (as is the case for the average fleet, which I believe is still well under 10% of miles).
EV charging rates mid/off-peak in your area is about $0.10/kWh (this ignores demand charges) or $3.4 per 100 miles, over a 150k mile lifespan that still works out to $5100 in electricity. This is already way over the oft-quoted $2000 supposed premium for supercharging (which no longer exists).
https://www.sce.com/wps/portal/home/regulatory/tariff-books/rates-pricing-choices/business-rates/
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Danal
electricmotorglider.com
This is repeated so often it has become "tribal wisdom". Is there a statement, anywhere, from Tesla Motors that supports this?
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
No need for statement. Just do some math. Cumulative US sales at the end of 2014 stands at ~37000. Let's be generous and assume 20% are 60kWh with no supercharger option (a survey below says more like 10%), which gives ~30000 Model S with supercharger option.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/08/tesla-model-s-sales-figures-usa-canada.html
http://www.teslarati.com/most-popular-tesla-model-s-configurations/
North American supercharger infrastructure as it stands right now (giving half a year lead time for stations vs sales) is 460 stalls across 160 stations. Mean/Median/Mode stalls per station stands at 6, max is 12 stalls.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showwiki.php?title=North+American+Tesla+Supercharger+locations
As it stands you have 65 cars per stall. If each car averaged 40 miles per day (as per typical american), that's 2600 miles each stall must serve daily. Even if people lined up 24 hours nonstop it must average at 108mph, at a more typical 12 hours 216mph. And given if both stalls are occupied, the power is split in half, you aren't going to hit those numbers (esp. once you throw in real world range and tapering, not the peak number using ideal range). Throw in regional and daily variances in demand and it's pretty clear the supercharger network can't handle demand from daily charging.
There is already congestion at some stations even without daily demand. As it stands mid-last year, supercharger miles only accounted for about 5-6% of travel by Model S owners. I can't imagine what congestion would be like if it accounted for even 50% of travel by Model S owners.
http://insideevs.com/5-model-s-miles-supercharged-miles/
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m6bigdog
Member
FWIW, Tesla knows who is being knotty or nice!
From the owners Manual:
"Vehicle Telematics/Data Recorders - ... These modules also record information about the vehicle’s features such as charging events and status, the enabling/disabling of various systems, diagnostic trouble codes, VIN, speed, direction and location."
Also the intent of the Supercharger Network:
"Why is it free?
We want to encourage Model S owners to take road trips."
I have yet to see the Supercharger privilege advertised for the commuter to replace or offset their home or worksite charging.
As the numbers of Tesla's increase and if only a small percentage of commuters indiscriminately used the Superchargers during peak utility rate hours as their personal commuter charging station it will break the budget in short order (even a 20kWh charge or 58mile commute at $0.10-0.20kWh is $2-4/day/car is $500 -1000/year/car).
I anticipate Tesla could end the privilege by selling the Supercharger Network to a third party that would then charge for their use or Tesla could start placing limits on Supercharger use, but that may be difficult given the way the privilege was rolled out "free for the life of the Model S".
Just my thoughts
The math is good, but you are calculating for a case that is rare if not impossible right now. Just like i can calculate what destruction the sun expanding into earth's orbit would do to the earth, but the probabality of that happening now is very very very low. Maybe in the future sure... Same as the case you are calculating.
Like i said, there will be very few people who is blessed with my situation which will benefit them to do the daily charging. The rest of 99% model s owners will have to pay dearly in time cost if they do daily charging.
I dont understand some people's vehement opposition to this. It is akin to class warfare i guess. Just because it doesnt favor them to do what i plan to do they dont want anyone else to benefit from it. Look i understand it might not work for you, but you dont have to spoil it for others who happen to benefit from it because of their situation. Sure down the road if the congestion becomes a problem, then i will be no different from you guys. It is not like i am recommending this to everyone to do. I am trying to point out to the few who can also benefit from this.
Your very first words on original post: I want to get people's opinions on this. Well you are getting them. Did you want them in order to help with decision? It appears not. You announced what you plan to do, and have argued with whomever put forth an opinion to the contrary.
You are getting a lot of opinions, many of them well-reasoned and compelling as to why you will not save as much money as you think by charging at your local SC and the potential issues that could result if a lot of Tesla owners followed your approach.
It seems like you had made up your mind on this issue before you started this thread and asked for opinions. Calling the disagreement "class warfare" is not helpful and and an inappropriate use of the term, in my opinion.
If you read some of my eariler thread, i was actually convinced the nema 14-50 route was the solution. It still might be, but i have since changed my mind after a few more supportive comments. In fact i was not sure of my intial position at the beginning of the post until i heard from BOTH sides.
The comments i contest are usually the one NOT well reasoned or pejorative. I dont think the arguement about class warefare is any different. Inappropriate? Maybe but i think this is the root of some of the more harsh critics here.
m6bigdog
Member
The "opposition" comes from an unsustainable proposal; so why condone the behavior.
The "vehement" part is your conscience speaking; nothing more.
Relax, the daily cost of your commute has been reduced by using an EV; however if you purchased an EV to save money, Haven help you!!
IMHO, commuters using a Supercharger in San Diego will limit itself if not on the first day, shortly after it opens.
It wont be "class warfare" it will be 'Supercharger Stall Wars' as the queue for getting a charge gets unruly and contentious from the sheer numbers of impatient commuters that want free electricity.
A year old SoCal article on the topic of Free Charging stalls: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/car-600463-dunton-electric.html
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
Skip the NEMA 14-50. Don't spend a dime on extra equipment for the car or your home. Use what you already have there - a standard 120V outlet.
People underestimate the utility of 120V charging. I did just fine on it exclusively for two years. Should you find yourself coming up short by the end of the week, then stop by the Supercharger.
This maximizes your time and minimizes your costs. It's the optimal solution along both considerations.
It's worth noting that commercial users of power, like Tesla at Superchargers, pay considerably higher demand charges for peak power loads, typically 4x. That 20kWh top off at the Supercharger that would cost you $2 at home will cost Tesla $8.
Also, charging at peak times could mean contributing to peaker power plant load, which typically are Nat gas, which means more CO2 emitted than charging at night at home on unused baseload capacity.
People underestimate the utility of 120V charging. I did just fine on it exclusively for two years. Should you find yourself coming up short by the end of the week, then stop by the Supercharger.
This maximizes your time and minimizes your costs. It's the optimal solution along both considerations.
It's worth noting that commercial users of power, like Tesla at Superchargers, pay considerably higher demand charges for peak power loads, typically 4x. That 20kWh top off at the Supercharger that would cost you $2 at home will cost Tesla $8.
Also, charging at peak times could mean contributing to peaker power plant load, which typically are Nat gas, which means more CO2 emitted than charging at night at home on unused baseload capacity.
And during that time what was your driving pattern? How many miles per day on average? Length of typical drive?
Using a supercharger as your primary source of charging when you live in a multi-family building and can't plug in overnight is one thing. Using a supercharger as your primary source of charging when you can reasonably install a 14-50 outlet at home but choose not to is something else entirely. I won't say what that is so this post will stay here instead of being moved to snippiness.
kuttakamina
Member
Since all of us have paid for supercharging (built into the cost of the car), with the intent of supporting the network and using it judiciously for the intended purpose of long trips, if one tesla owner abuses the system and leeching off free charges all the time, I would think of that person as that roommate in college who are all the ice cream that everyone pitched in for.
.. But most probably, if you are trying to save money by charging on superchargers, you're not buying a tesla.
i have a super charger 10 minutes from me. I think I may use it every now and then, for fun or emergencies. But that's about it.
.. But most probably, if you are trying to save money by charging on superchargers, you're not buying a tesla.
i have a super charger 10 minutes from me. I think I may use it every now and then, for fun or emergencies. But that's about it.
I think that's bad advice for the vast majority of Tesla buyers who plan to drive the car and not just admire it in the garage. Most people would not be happy with that. Plugging into 120V at the airport or when away for a weekend somewhere and the car stays parked there is helpful, but it's an entirely different experience having a 14-50 or HPWC in your garage vs. 120V.
hans
P631
If you get lots of extra ketchup packages you could take them home and squeeze them into a bottle for use later on your hotdogs ;-)
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