Supercharging to reduce ownership cost of a Model S.

[Danal]

Reminds me of a person who did not understand why our company should pay for software (in this case, CAD software) when she knew there were ways to unlock it without a license code. The logic was "XYZ is a big company, they won't miss the $10,000 from us, they have hundreds of millions". Happened to be the secretary at the same 10 person consulting company where I worked. Our only revenue was hourly client billing. I asked here if it "Was OK that a client did not pay their $3000 bill to us, because our total billable intake last year was a little over two million". She said "Of course not! They have to pay!". I asked here to explain to me the difference in the two situations? Long silence.

Just because the thing you are taking comes from a large pool, does not change the ethics of the situation. Doing what you describe is directly stealing from every Tesla owner who participated in funding the Supercharger network by purchasing a vehicle.

 

[Chipper]

Some more ideas to save money:

Always pinch and only poop when you go to work. Saves you money on toilet paper.

Roll down the window and stick your head out as you drive. Keep you mouth open wide. Saves money on snacks.

Only shower once a week, whenever you are at someone else's house. Saves having to wash your own towels and buy your own soap.

Don't pay for garbage pickup. Just put your trash in your neighbors trash can.

Really?? That's the best you have?? He is asking for opinions. Did you really think this post is productive?

- - - Updated - - -

I hope OP was joking, but I suspect not. I simply cannot understand how anybody can consider TCO without factoring in PITA time. Fact is, even if you value your time at some minuscule amount like $10 per hour, you come out WAY ahead with home charging vs. sitting at a supercharger, driving out of the way to get to/fro supercharger, re-routing or waiting when your supercharger is jammed, re-arranging your schedule for off-peak supercharger time, etc. Now, I do understand why some condo/apartment dwellers are forced to be gypsy chargers. But if you've got a place to put a charger, you'll come out way ahead on TCO if you install one and use it every night.

Not to mention, the issue of being a parasite. If you want to be a parasite, go ahead. I know it would damage my self-image.

Not always true, Tomas. If I can continue my work while sitting at the charger is is not PITA or worthless time. He has already stated it is NOT out of the way to get to the SC. It is right on the way home. I live kind of in an out-of-the-way location, (not sure if he does) but my SC has NEVER been "jammed" and I would not be inconveniencing anyone by my charging routines. I may be a "gypsy charger" (sounds a bit pejorative!) in your opinion, but then your opinion of me is irrelevant. How about this? Offer your opinion like others and he can choose. It is not a life or death decision nor does it have to be for the life of his owner experience. He can always drop out of the "gypsies" clan if it is not suiting his needs.

- - - Updated - - -

Just because the thing you are taking comes from a large pool, does not change the ethics of the situation. Doing what you describe is directly stealing from every Tesla owner who participated in funding the Supercharger network by purchasing a vehicle.

NO!!! NO. NO. Just NO! One cannot steal what one has already paid for! Elon himself has said use the SC's to your heart's content. That is why he built them. If you use the SC twice as much as me am I only stealing half as much as you? The OP is not stealing anything from me OR Tesla.

 

[Danal]

Elon himself has said use the SC's to your heart's content.

I've been thinking about that very point since I made my post. Where was it stated, in writing, from Tesla Motors, that Superchargers are for travel? We all speculate about funding and business models, and perhaps that got repeated enough to become accepted, including by me. Upon research, nothing relating to "travel only" or even "travel mostly" reflects Tesla's corporate position. In fact, the Tesla Motors Supercharger web page explicitly states: Superchargers are free connectors that charge Model S in minutes instead of hours. We strategically place Superchargers along well-traveled highways and in congested city centers.

As such, I stand corrected.

Since I was so forceful before, let me be equally clear that I was in error, and be clear about the reality of the situation: OP, and any other Tesla owner who's location makes it beneficial, are behaving in line with Tesla corporate policy to charge at SCs as much as possible to reduce their costs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing so, again per Tesla's written position.


In summary:

Convenience and time tradeoff? Individual decision.

Funding and ethics? Written proof from Tesla Motors this is absolutely OK.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Some people have no sense of humor.

 

[Chipper]

I've been thinking about that very point since I made my post. Where was it stated, in writing, from Tesla Motors, that Superchargers are for travel? We all speculate about funding and business models, and perhaps that got repeated enough to become accepted, including by me. Upon research, nothing relating to "travel only" or even "travel mostly" reflects Tesla's corporate position. In fact, the Tesla Motors Supercharger web page explicitly states: Superchargers are free connectors that charge Model S in minutes instead of hours. We strategically place Superchargers along well-traveled highways and in congested city centers.

As such, I stand corrected.

Since I was so forceful before, let me be equally clear that I was in error, and be clear about the reality of the situation: OP, and any other Tesla owner who's location makes it beneficial, are behaving in line with Tesla corporate policy to charge at SCs as much as possible to reduce their costs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing so, again per Tesla's written position.


In summary:

Convenience and time tradeoff? Individual decision.

Funding and ethics? Written proof from Tesla Motors this is absolutely OK.

reputation points to you for this correction. Greatly appreciated!

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I've been thinking about that very point since I made my post. Where was it stated, in writing, from Tesla Motors, that Superchargers are for travel? We all speculate about funding and business models, and perhaps that got repeated enough to become accepted, including by me. Upon research, nothing relating to "travel only" or even "travel mostly" reflects Tesla's corporate position. In fact, the Tesla Motors Supercharger web page explicitly states: Superchargers are free connectors that charge Model S in minutes instead of hours. We strategically place Superchargers along well-traveled highways and in congested city centers.

As such, I stand corrected.

The order page for the Model S says "Free long distance travel on the Supercharger network" so I'd always assumed it was more for road trips. I live 35 miles from the closest SuperCharger so I'll probably only use them when heading out of town or making a run to the airport. I won't be using it for driving around town but I guess I can't blame others if they do.

 

[RyanT]

I've stopped at a supercharger and CHAdeMO when I haven't needed them. Usually I'll plug in, check my email, forum, and walk the dog. Just as a kind of leisure thing and the superchargers have never been full around here. I say let the OP plan on it. When he/she gets sick of it they'll install a 14-50.

 

[hiroshiy]

To the OP, I would recommend try that for a few months or until you get tired going to the Supercharger. If you can kill time there like 15-30 min doing email or phone calls that would work out. If you have family or friends with you it might not. You'll see. Then you can decide whether to install home charging. Note you could also charge at 15amp at 200V, 3kW, that's 10 miles per hour, so overnight you will have 80 miles of charge. If you charge at night only with timer, you might need very little electrical work needed to get 20amp @200V circuit.

I personally became doing more roadtrips after I purchased Model S. I rarely use Superchargers in Tokyo (one is 10 min drive) though - my wife doesn't want to "wait" there, even for 15 min. When I go there to charge, I usually buy a cup of coffee at Starbucks so I don't save much money there!

 

[Khatsalano]

A new supercharger is being built 1.5 miles from my house, at the Whole Foods where I shop every weekend. Can I use this without much hassle to save on electricity at home? Most definitely. But no, my time isn't worth the couple dollars saved for the inconvenience of having to plug in and unplug at the SC. I have no other inconvenience because the "waiting time" is simply my grocery shopping time. I also feel a duty to the EV community to let those who really need it, use the superchargers.

I consider the OP, owners in apartments and condos, those who want to save a couple bucks on electricity that day, and those on road trips to be all legitimate users and I would be happy to make way for them. The only thing I ask in return is that while at an SC, you be our ambassador for the advent of sustainable transport. If someone chats you up, be friendly and informative. If you convince one more person on the planet to stop emitting CO2 for personal transport, I'll gladly hand over my $2,000 subsidy in my purchase price to you.

- K

 

[tomas]

Ok if danal can recant his post, I can walk the parasite word back a bit... Just a bit though. The supercharger network was put in place to foster acceptance of 200-250 mile range cars for distAnce travel. That's why vast majority line highways. And tesla is starting to offer in more urban areas. There is legit demand from condo/apartment owners. And tesla has never spoken of or implemented limitation. But, fact is, if even large minority of owners decided to follow trail OP is blazing, tesla would have to invest far more in infrastructure and electricity or impose limits. Which would hamper growth and adoption by increasing price. Or would cause restrictions, which would harm owner perception of company. All because people who buy 100k car want to save a few thousand in operating cost.

 

[Lerxt]

What is with the indignation? If you own a Model S you paid $2000 extra for supercharging. You have every right to use it as you see fit.

 

[TexasEV]

What is with the indignation? If you own a Model S you paid $2000 extra for supercharging. You have every right to use it as you see fit.

No you didn't. I don't know why this figure keeps getting thrown out there. That was the cost for 60s to activate supercharging and when it was announced it was described as being for the hardware and software in the car. Nothing about the superchargers. How much or how little Tesla spends on building out the supercharger network is not necessarily based on a fixed amount per car sold, and if it is the amount is no more likely to be $2000 than any other number.

 

[richkae]

Really?? That's the best you have?? He is asking for opinions. Did you really think this post is productive?

My best? Not really. I thought the first one was pretty funny. The rest are a little weak.

Maybe it was too subtle to make the point that there are other ways to save the couple dollars a day without wasting your time.

If you are sitting at the supercharger, you may be able to find higher quality humor on other sites.

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

A new supercharger is being built 1.5 miles from my house, at the Whole Foods where I shop every weekend. Can I use this without much hassle to save on electricity at home? Most definitely. But no, my time isn't worth the couple dollars saved for the inconvenience of having to plug in and unplug at the SC. I have no other inconvenience because the "waiting time" is simply my grocery shopping time. I also feel a duty to the EV community to let those who really need it, use the superchargers.

I consider the OP, owners in apartments and condos, those who want to save a couple bucks on electricity that day, and those on road trips to be all legitimate users and I would be happy to make way for them. The only thing I ask in return is that while at an SC, you be our ambassador for the advent of sustainable transport. If someone chats you up, be friendly and informative. If you convince one more person on the planet to stop emitting CO2 for personal transport, I'll gladly hand over my $2,000 subsidy in my purchase price to you.

- K

Thanks for the reasonable words. If I pursue this path, I will probably move my car the moment someone comes in and needs a charge and all the stalls are full. Remember I am only there 15-30 minutes at most for every other day at odd hours anyways. I am all for EV movement and will do the best to promote it as I can. I don't think my actions are any impediment to this movement.

Ok if danal can recant his post, I can walk the parasite word back a bit... Just a bit though. The supercharger network was put in place to foster acceptance of 200-250 mile range cars for distAnce travel. That's why vast majority line highways. And tesla is starting to offer in more urban areas. There is legit demand from condo/apartment owners. And tesla has never spoken of or implemented limitation. But, fact is, if even large minority of owners decided to follow trail OP is blazing, tesla would have to invest far more in infrastructure and electricity or impose limits. Which would hamper growth and adoption by increasing price. Or would cause restrictions, which would harm owner perception of company. All because people who buy 100k car want to save a few thousand in operating cost.

Don't think of it as me saving a few bucks but more of "why not use it if no one else is using it?" If I was in to save a few bucks, then I would probably wait for the Model 3 or what not. It would truly be a waste if everyone NOT use the charging station just so it is available to someone else who also doesn't want to use. Why then would you even build these supercharging station. I think Tesla has thought this out.

1) They know not everyone will be blessed with my situation where the charging station is on their way to work.
2) They know most other people will rather NOT take a costly detour in time just to charge at these station every chance they get.
3) They know the ones that are that desperate are the road trip travelers who definitely need the charge which are a few here and there. Seriously who can take road trips every day?
4) They know the charging time will be limited for each car because of the fast rate of charging.
5) They also know there are only so many model S on the road who would need the charge ALL at once.

With all those reasons, I think they can safely control the stations congestion for now. However, down the road with the release of the Model 3 who knows if this will become a problem.

 

[Danal]

Is there a written statement from Tesla anywhere that Model 3 Super Charging will be lifetime free?

 

[cpa]

Thanks for the reasonable words. If I pursue this path, I will probably move my car the moment someone comes in and needs a charge and all the stalls are full. Remember I am only there 15-30 minutes at most for every other day at odd hours anyways. I am all for EV movement and will do the best to promote it as I can. I don't think my actions are any impediment to this movement.



Don't think of it as me saving a few bucks but more of "why not use it if no one else is using it?" If I was in to save a few bucks, then I would probably wait for the Model 3 or what not. It would truly be a waste if everyone NOT use the charging station just so it is available to someone else who also doesn't want to use. Why then would you even build these supercharging station. I think Tesla has thought this out.

1) They know not everyone will be blessed with my situation where the charging station is on their way to work.
2) They know most other people will rather NOT take a costly detour in time just to charge at these station every chance they get.
3) They know the ones that are that desperate are the road trip travelers who definitely need the charge which are a few here and there. Seriously who can take road trips every day?
4) They know the charging time will be limited for each car because of the fast rate of charging.
5) They also know there are only so many model S on the road who would need the charge ALL at once.

With all those reasons, I think they can safely control the stations congestion for now. However, down the road with the release of the Model 3 who knows if this will become a problem.

I think you nailed it! Five years from now we just do not know how much the charging environment will resemble the environment today. Most of us "early adopters" are reasonably well off and enjoy the fact that we can plug in every night for a couple of bucks, plus the installation costs of a suitable plug. It is a fact of life that there is a segment of the population that will go out of their way to get something for nothing. I learned this valuable life lesson when I worked in a retail liquor store from 16-24. The owner gave away ice for free--as much as you wanted--no purchase required. Customers who were not familiar with the policy would offer to buy a small bag or two, and we would tell them it was complimentary. Some customers would decide to make a purchase anyway--maybe just a couple packs of smokes. But there were also those who would come back time after time, sometimes getting as much as a 50-pound bag, because it was free.

Human nature doesn't change. There will always be those who like to boast that they got such-and-such for free. (And birds of a feather. . .) Two percent of owners today spread out over the entire continent is a relatively small number. Two percent (maybe more) of owners in 6 years is a significantly larger number, and the Supercharger build-out both in terms of increased urban locations and number of charging spots per location will have to increase even more significantly.

 

[schonelucht]

Don't think of it as me saving a few bucks but more of "why not use it if no one else is using it?" If I was in to save a few bucks, then I would probably wait for the Model 3 or what not. It would truly be a waste if everyone NOT use the charging station just so it is available to someone else who also doesn't want to use. Why then would you even build these supercharging station. I think Tesla has thought this out.

Never underestimate Tesla's ability to not think things out. The Tesla taxi fleet (100+ cars) at the airport visits the nearby Amsterdam supercharger every single day. They do it specifically to save up on 1) electricity costs 2) downtime. It's the only way to make their business case work (information is self-reported by a Taxi owner in the Dutch section). This predictably creates congestion issues with a queue several waiting cars deep every afternoon. The consensus is that this is Tesla's problem, but for now they haven't taken the most sensible action : building more stalls or a second supercharger site that is less attractive for local traffic.

I would say not to worry about it. If supercharging everyday is the way to make the car a financial viability for you and you don't mind the hassle : go for it. It's Tesla's problem to deal with.

 

[ra-san]

Not sure why OP is asking for opinions, since I mostly see his responses justifying his own proposal to dissenting opinion, and a thank you for being so open minded to opinion supporting his own.

Plenty of opinions already covering the whole range, so no need to add mine. Will note that the amount allocated to supercharger from model s purchases is set in part based on a model of how they are used. I'm certain the model was made knowing there would be outliers, but by definition that means it isn't normal usage for many people and therefore if it were, then the model and costs would almost certainly have to change (if only to speed up solar canopy rollout, but again that has cost implications). The ISP example was a fair and accurate example of this point, I think, and got missed by some people replying past that post.

 

[smsprague]

I ran into local charging congestion for the first time on a trip last week. Wanted to use the Oxnard supercharger on my way to Santa Barbara. It's at a nice open air mall with a Whole Foods and REI. It was completely full with locals. Had to wait for a spot and then charging was slow. Really prolonged the trip.

 

[AudubonB]

What clued you in to the fact all the Oxnard SpC users were locals?