Supercharging to reduce ownership cost of a Model S.

[EarlyAdopter]

And during that time what was your driving pattern? How many miles per day on average? Length of typical drive?

How's the car charge in the winter?

I think that's bad advice for the vast majority of Tesla buyers who plan to drive the car and not just admire it in the garage. Most people would not be happy with that. Plugging into 120V at the airport or when away for a weekend somewhere and the car stays parked there is helpful, but it's an entirely different experience having a 14-50 or HPWC in your garage vs. 120V.

My post was directed at the OP, who lives in Southern California and commutes ~50 miles a day (not sure they said exactly how much, per day). 120V is fine for them, with an occasional top up at a Supercharger. No need to complicate this further.

In my case, my round trip commute was 30 miles. In the summer I average 330Wh/mi, or 10kWh a day roundtrip. Winter, 400Wh/mi, or 12kWh roundtrip. Both of those are easily recovered overnight on 120V 12A in my non-conditioned garage, where I see about 3mi/hr of charge rate (or roughly 1kW) year round.

 

[markb1]

My post was directed at the OP, who lives in Southern California and commutes ~50 miles a day (not sure they said exactly how much, per day). 120V is fine for them, with an occasional top up at a Supercharger. No need to complicate this further.

In my case, my round trip commute was 30 miles. In the summer I average 330Wh/mi, or 10kWh a day roundtrip. Winter, 400Wh/mi, or 12kWh roundtrip. Both of those are easily recovered overnight on 120V 12A in my non-conditioned garage, where I see about 3mi/hr of charge rate (or roughly 1kW) year round.

For the Model S, 120V charging is much less efficient that 240V charging. You'll use a lot more electricity if you only charge at 120V.

 

[Danal]

I have yet to see the Supercharger privilege advertised for the commuter to replace or offset their home or worksite charging.

Directly from the Tesla Motors site page on Superchargers:

Superchargers are free connectors that charge Model S in minutes instead of hours. We strategically place Superchargers along well-traveled highways and in congested city centers.


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No need for statement. Just do some math.

With great respect, I will take Tesla's published position vs. any chain of reasoning or math.

 

[TexasEV]

Directly from the Tesla Motors site page on Superchargers:

Superchargers are free connectors that charge Model S in minutes instead of hours. We strategically place Superchargers along well-traveled highways and in congested city centers.


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With great respect, I will take Tesla's published position vs. any chain of reasoning or math.

The "congested city centers" refers to cities where owners live in multi-family buildings or in houses without garages so they can't charge at home. The example Diarmuid O'Connell gave at TMC Connect last year was London, where he said you see expensive cars parked on the street in residential areas. The city center superchargers are not intended for people who could charge at home but are too cheap to do so.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

For the Model S, 120V charging is much less efficient that 240V charging. You'll use a lot more electricity if you only charge at 120V.

It's not so bad. The difference comes not so much from a reduction in charging efficiency as it does from a longer period of time with the car awake (not in sleep, power saving mode). I did an analysis a couple of years ago on 120V charging efficiency vs. 240V. It's roughly 73% vs. 85%.

 

[rlang59]

Directly from the Tesla Motors site page on Superchargers:

Superchargers are free connectors that charge Model S in minutes instead of hours. We strategically place Superchargers along well-traveled highways and in congested city centers.

Now lets be fair here that same site also says this:

Stations are strategically placed to minimize stops during long distance travel and are conveniently located near restaurants, shopping centers, and WiFi hot spots.

 

[tomas]

Now lets be fair here that same site also says this:

Stations are strategically placed to minimize stops during long distance travel and are conveniently located near restaurants, shopping centers, and WiFi hot spots.

Agree, all this parsing of Tesla's words becomes subjective. However, I believe the body of ALL Tesla's announcements and statements over the years is pretty clear: Superchargers were set up to enable distance travel and remove that substantial "can't do a road trip" buying objection. They only started doing city centers far into the highway rollout. Though I've never seen anything from Tesla saying this explicitly, I agree with the crowd who believes this was intended to help sell cars to apartment/condo dwellers.

Tesla is trying to sell cars. Lots of them. You don't do this by offering "free" supercharging, and then putting a lot of conditions around it. So, I'm guessing they have relied upon the relative low cost and convenience of nightly home charging to keep the superchargers from becoming congested by owners who use as alternative to home charging. Rather than saying "you can't" or establishing limits. There was conjecture on a couple of threads here several months ago that - based on evidence of lower-than-usual supercharging rates - that Tesla had implemented some kW restrictions as you charger closer to "home". Turned out not to be the case, but there were quite a few members on this forum who believed Tesla was going there. They still could, they have all the telematics to do it.

It is true this will hit crisis mode with the X and the III. Tesla will, at some point, have to either abandon the "free" model, put in place "close to home" restrictions, or substantially increase capacity. All a problem I think they'll be happy to face - it will mean they've sold a lot of cars.

The world is not going to explode because a few people like OP decide to use superchargers in lieu of home charging. I don't believe it will turn into an exodus, because most people would find it a real inconvenience, or (like me) might have ethical problems doing it. I just hope the few that do this have the courtesy to pull out any time they see all the stalls taken - regardless of SOC.

 

[cpa]

This whole thread is more a social awareness thread than anything else. It has been said in other situations that people judge others by their actions, and we judge ourselves by our intentions. We humans are the kings of rationalization and justification for our behaviors. We can be selfish, greedy, thoughtless, lazy, inconsiderate and cheap. We can also be generous, selfless, gracious, kind, and thoughtful.

Situations like these seem to me to be teachable moments for our children, and learning experiences for ourselves, if we are willing to take our ego out of the picture. There have been numerous posts advancing contrary positions to the poster's intent. The most compelling argument was to compromise. Save your money on the 14-50. Use the 110V in your garage every night overnight and top up once a week/ten days when your range is low or you have date night. As my sainted grandmother told me back in the late '50s when I was about six years old, "Virtue is doing the right thing even when nobody is looking."

It appears that the OPs intent all along is to save money. Fine. We all like to save some money and spend it on other pursuits. But to be so intractable and not even be willing to compromise to charge at home daily on a 110V plug, and then just use the SC 4-5 times a month to top off seems selfish. There are enough times in our lives when we have to think of ourselves first--when being selfish is good. But this is not one of them.

 

[dsm363]

If someone wants to spend that much time at a Supercharger just to save a few bucks more power to them so to speak. I would hope that if there was someone waiting to charge after they got there that they would move if they really didn't need the charge.

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

If someone wants to spend that much time at a Supercharger just to save a few bucks more power to them so to speak. I would hope that if there was someone waiting to charge after they got there that they would move if they really didn't need the charge.

That was the plan all along. If the stations are full and someone pulls up, I'm sure I will be the first to leave. Chances are I will probably have my 15-30 minutes by the time it fills up and the new tesla arriving.

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This whole thread is more a social awareness thread than anything else. It has been said in other situations that people judge others by their actions, and we judge ourselves by our intentions. We humans are the kings of rationalization and justification for our behaviors. We can be selfish, greedy, thoughtless, lazy, inconsiderate and cheap. We can also be generous, selfless, gracious, kind, and thoughtful.

Situations like these seem to me to be teachable moments for our children, and learning experiences for ourselves, if we are willing to take our ego out of the picture. There have been numerous posts advancing contrary positions to the poster's intent. The most compelling argument was to compromise. Save your money on the 14-50. Use the 110V in your garage every night overnight and top up once a week/ten days when your range is low or you have date night. As my sainted grandmother told me back in the late '50s when I was about six years old, "Virtue is doing the right thing even when nobody is looking."

It appears that the OPs intent all along is to save money. Fine. We all like to save some money and spend it on other pursuits. But to be so intractable and not even be willing to compromise to charge at home daily on a 110V plug, and then just use the SC 4-5 times a month to top off seems selfish. There are enough times in our lives when we have to think of ourselves first--when being selfish is good. But this is not one of them.

Let's look at it another way to see my point of view:

Let's say you buy an ICE car from Toyota and Toyota gives you free gasoline for life of your car. The only catch is you need to use their stations to fill up. It happens their gasoline station is on your way to work and you only need to fill up twice or thrice a week at their station. However, you also have the ability to pay $2K to install a fueling station at home and fill up at home. But you will still need to pay for the gasoline you use at your home fueling station.

I can confidently say anyone would choose to fill up at the Toyota fueling station predominately.

Now say you situation is different. The Toyota fueling station requires a 100 miles detour every time you fill up at their station just because of your home and work location. Moreover, each refill will take longer because you depleted more gasoline compared to the case above. And you would have to stop there everyday or maybe even multiple times just to get enough gasoline to get to work/home and maybe others. You would probably say, screw it, I rather just pay for the installation and fuel up at home.

Replace Toyota with Tesla, ICE with Model S, and gasoline with electricity to get your answer.



-------- EDIT ADD:
Look I know you think this is selfish and greedy and it's hurting other tesla users. But if you stop and look it objectively here is what you should see:
If the stations are empty and no one is using it, then how is me using it hurt any of the other tesla users? Sure it might degrade the my charging ports and the connector on the charging station, but Tesla is suppose to cover that. Electricity cost? Tesla covers this. Maybe Qualcomm, who knows...

If you are arguing you are hurting tesla and the EV movement. I doubt that is the case. I am probably one of the last guys who wants tesla to fail. I have been a long time stock holder and still have some TSLA stocks. EV movement? I laugh at that. I have been riding my bikes, ebikes, electric scooters, etc way before tesla was even a company. If anything I an avid supporter and promoter for the EV movement.

Are you worried that if you agree with me, then everyone will start doing what I do and congest the stations? I seriously doubt that will happen. Look at my example above. I am not looking for approval here. I am looking for comments and feedback. And so far, there has not been a good reason for ME NOT to charge there. In fact there are good reason why I should charge there. Maybe in the future it will not be wise to do so, but right now, it looks fine to me.

 

[markb1]

It's not so bad. The difference comes not so much from a reduction in charging efficiency as it does from a longer period of time with the car awake (not in sleep, power saving mode). I did an analysis a couple of years ago on 120V charging efficiency vs. 240V. It's roughly 73% vs. 85%.

It seems a little bit worse than that, if you go by Tesla's numbers. A standard outlet is 1.4 kW and charges at 3 miles per hour, while a 14-50 is 10 kW and charges at 29 miles per hour.

That's 2.14 vs. 2.9 miles per hour per kW.

Source: Tesla Charging | Tesla Motors

 

[gnxs]

If someone wants to spend that much time at a Supercharger just to save a few bucks more power to them so to speak. I would hope that if there was someone waiting to charge after they got there that they would move if they really didn't need the charge.

Agree 100% to both the fact that any user is free to SC as much as they like and also that my hope would be that they would leave if others showed up and were unable to charge.

On occasion I do exactly what the OP is contemplating (use a SC even though I can charge at home with my Clipper Creek L2 charger). The SC is on my way home and I stop when I have some multi-tasking I can do from the driver's seat, my battery charge is fairly low and there are open stalls (this particular location has never been full when i've been there).

 

[callmesam]

I purchased my MS60 in August 2013 and paid $2000 for what TM calls "Supercharging" on my window sticker.

I have a question for OP and others:

What does "Free for Life" mean?

What limitations has Tesla placed on Supercharging use?

Do you believe it when TM says they will be able to install $250K Superchargers pretty much everywhere?

Does TM know that people can save several thousand dollars per year just charging on Superchargers?

Does TM know that the taxi companies are piggybacking on the system?

If I go over to the Westfield Culver City to shop at Target (3 miles from my house), can I charge my car while I'm there?

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

What does "Free for Life" mean?

----- Free to use Supercharging station anywhere there is one for the life of the car. So if you car is still running, you are welcome to use it free of charge.

What limitations has Tesla placed on Supercharging use?

----- None that I know of. Some people were speculating they impose a charge rate limit on some of the heavy users, but I think the consensus is Tesla is NOT limiting anyone.

Do you believe it when TM says they will be able to install $250K Superchargers pretty much everywhere?

----- Nope. Land price, deals brokering, etc probably limits where they can place these things. Not counting the availability of electricity.

Does TM know that people can save several thousand dollars per year just charging on Superchargers?

----- Several thousands might be a stretch. Sure for me it was ~ $2000 per year but that is because I live in a place where electricity is expensive and cleaner. Over in the east coast where electricity is dirtier, it is cheaper. Politics should create an environment where cleaner energy should get the price cut to promote the technology. This seems backwards to me.

Does TM know that the taxi companies are piggybacking on the system?

I am sure they are aware of it. But they know those are the few and it is perfectly manageable for now...

If I go over to the Westfield Culver City to shop at Target (3 miles from my house), can I charge my car while I'm there?

----- I didn't bother to look up if there is a supercharging station, but if there is one, you can definitely charge there while you shop. However, keep in mind, it is EV charging etiquette to leave as soon as you are done or at least move your car to a non charging parking spot. i.e. No leave your car taking up a charging port after the charging is done. I wish tesla would integrate some feature into their app to allow other users to notify other tesla owner their charging is done and someone is waiting. Sometime people forget and such.

 

[mknox]

It appears that the OPs intent all along is to save money. Fine. We all like to save some money and spend it on other pursuits.

To be fair, there could be a bit more to it than that. I've read a number of posts suggesting that anyone who can afford the car can afford to charge it. But for a lot of folks, this car is way more expensive than any other car they've ever owned. For me, it was nearly twice as much as my previous most expensive car. As such, I did a lot of calculations and ran a lot of numbers to convince myself that the purchase was do-able. For me, the saving grace was that I drive so darned much, the lower cost of "fuel" made the case for me. I'm not sure I could have afforded the car if I didn't drive my 24,000 miles a year. It could be that the OP is doing some similar rationalizing and by taking the cost of electricity out of the equation, the numbers are happier.

 

[Danal]

I purchased my MS60 in August 2013 and paid $2000 for what TM calls "Supercharging" on my window sticker.

I have a question for OP and others:

What does "Free for Life" mean?

Exactly what it says, with the assumption "life of the car". Free for as long as that VIN car is capable of reaching a Supercharger and absorbing charge.

What limitations has Tesla placed on Supercharging use?

None, in writing, that anyone has been able to find or quote. All else is speculation at best and confirmation bias at worst.

Do you believe it when TM says they will be able to install $250K Superchargers pretty much everywhere?

I believe they know where, and how many, they will need, before the entire world passes an inflection point. Personally, I believe that we will see balkanization first, in the form of incompatible networks, and then the infinitely powerful force of greed will cause networks to cut deals with each other. Exactly how end-users will pay, up front, vs. at point-of-charge, vs. some other model, remains to be seen. For one thing, I expect payment systems to MASSIVELY change during the same decades I'm speculating these charging network will change.

Does TM know that people can save several thousand dollars per year just charging on Superchargers?

Duhh.... mebbbeee...I've heard people say they are pretty fart smellers.... Uhh, Ohh, I mean smart fellers...

Does TM know that the taxi companies are piggybacking on the system?

Duhhh... mebbbeee...

If I go over to the Westfield Culver City to shop at Target (3 miles from my house), can I charge my car while I'm there?

ABSOLUTELY. Subject to normal human ettiquuite about any "commons" resource. NOT subject to limitations issued by Tesla Motors, because there are none.

 

[ecarfan]

I purchased my MS60 in August 2013 and paid $2000 for what TM calls "Supercharging" on my window sticker.
I have a question for OP and others:

Free for life means free for the life of the car. Applies to all subsequent owners.

There are no limitations on how often you can use the SC network.

Tesla is continuing to expand the SC network and I have no reason to think they will not continue to do so.

I'm sure Tesla is aware of how much money owners can save charging at SCs. It's not a complicated analysis.

I am sure Tesla is aware that transportation services that own Teslas are using the SC network.

You can charge your car at any Tesla SC whenever you want.

 

[callmesam]

Sorry should have been clear:


Can I use the Westfield Culver City Supercharger whenever I'm over there shopping at Target?


________




I guess from the answers given that anyone can use any Supercharger whenever they want.


Full stop.


Etiquette dictates not to overstay a charge or remain beyond gathering a needed charge if people are waiting.


It seems that many comments above related to practicality.


In answer to the OP's original query, give yourself an option of 14-50 charging at home, which you will need from time to time.


Don't buy the HPWC or the dual chargers or the extra UMC.


Use the Superchargers as you prefer.


__________


Overall, I believe that TM will offer Supercharging "included" for the S and X and there will be something else for the lower cost models to create good incentives not to clog the Superchargers OR they will charge more for the exclusive Supercharging owners.


Either way, I think it's beyond the pale to discourage owners from using something we all agree:


1. Tesla does not limit in any way


2. Tesla claims is free, for life


3. Tesla specifically promotes as a money saving tool and for owners where charging is difficult

 

[stopcrazypp]

Directly from the Tesla Motors site page on Superchargers:

Superchargers are free connectors that charge Model S in minutes instead of hours. We strategically place Superchargers along well-traveled highways and in congested city centers.


- - - Updated - - -



With great respect, I will take Tesla's published position vs. any chain of reasoning or math.

Congested city centers refers to the exceptional case, as others pointed out London for example (other examples include the chargers in big cities in China which are intended for people who don't have home charging).

Back to the case at hand: Tesla has no policy prohibiting people using superchargers for any reason. So the OP can go right ahead and do what he wants to do. However, people can also freely think less of him esp. if he contributes to congestion at the stations (may not necessarily be the case right now).

 

[Danal]

people can also freely think less of him

Does that mean I am free to think less of people who think less of.... oh, never mind. I hate recursion anyway.

Y'all have a nice day! Think Less!