Supercharging to reduce ownership cost of a Model S.

[bonnie]

Does that mean I am free to think less of people who think less of.... oh, never mind. I hate recursion anyway.

Y'all have a nice day! Think Less!

I think that's an endless loop - no recursion there.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Does that mean I am free to think less of people who think less of.... oh, never mind. I hate recursion anyway.

Y'all have a nice day! Think Less!

Yes, feel free to think less of me for thinking less of him :smile:.

But I think this is the gist of this whole thread. He knows from the back of his mind there is something somewhat unethical about using superchargers exclusively in his situation even when he has other charge options.

It's like the analogy others brought up of taking lots of "free" sauce packets from a restaurant to use at home (the example I think is more commonly taken though is napkins). While in a sense you "paid" for those from your meal (just like you "paid" for supercharging with your car), there is still something unethical about that.

So many here have expressed the same opinion and mostly he has pushed back on that. So there really is not much else to say other than that he should go ahead and do what he wanted to do, but be prepared to have plenty of people think less of him.

And on the subject of inner city superchargers, internet archive shows that the change was made at the beginning of this year (somewhere between Jan 8 and Jan 13):
https://web.archive.org/web/20150108122223/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
https://web.archive.org/web/20150113072623/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Note that the page in Jan 8 mentioned only roadtrips and nothing about cities.

Also note that in the Jan 13 example, it mentions this:

We strategically place Superchargers along well-traveled highways and in congested city centers where home charging is difficult.

That corresponds with Elon's mention sometime in 2014 of probably building city superchargers for those without home charging (a situation that does not apply to OP though).

That "home charging is difficult" part was removed sometime in late February/March.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150305043809/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
This corresponds with the time-frame of Elon's outrage over his Tesla sales people talking about the difficulty of charging the car (in a market where home charging is difficult), so I suspect this reference was removed in the same manner.
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon...-have-been-blown-way-out-of-proportion-2015-2

So I would say even in the case where Tesla explicitly built the supercharger inside the city, it is primarily intended for those without access to home charging, not for someone who has access but just wanted to save money.

 

[callmesam]

Analogies are slippery things. That's why it's best to apply first principles.

"I think its important to reason from first principles rather than by analogy…The normal way we conduct our lives is we reason by analogy…


We are doing this because it’s like something else that was done..or it is like what other people are doing…slight iterations on a theme…


“First principles” is a physics way of looking at the world…what that really means is that you boil things down to the most fundamental truths…and then reason up from there…that takes a lot more mental energy… - Elon Musk

I prefer to take the word of the company I bought the car from, in plain English, rather than letting someone on the forums tell me why I should feel "somewhat unethical" about using Supercharging.

And seeing how I spent $2000 for that right/privilege/opportunity, I will (continue) to use it as I see fit.

I recommend others do the same and do not listen to self appointed guardians of guilt.

 

[bonnie]

I recommend others do the same and do not listen to self appointed guardians of guilt.

As you try to make others feel guilty by your words ... love the irony on this forum at times.

 

[Danal]

“First principles” is a physics way of looking at the world…what that really means is that you boil things down to the most fundamental truths…and then reason up from there…that takes a lot more mental energy… - Elon Musk

I prefer to take the word of the company I bought the car from, in plain English, rather than letting someone on the forums tell me why I should feel "somewhat unethical" about using Supercharging.

And seeing how I spent $2000 for that right/privilege/opportunity, I will (continue) to use it as I see fit.

I recommend others do the same and do not listen to self appointed guardians of guilt.

Yep.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I prefer to take the word of the company I bought the car from, in plain English, rather than letting someone on the forums tell me why I should feel "somewhat unethical" about using Supercharging.

And seeing how I spent $2000 for that right/privilege/opportunity, I will (continue) to use it as I see fit.

I recommend others do the same and do not listen to self appointed guardians of guilt.

Tesla does not say you can't do this. However, they also do not say you SHOULD do this (with the exception of if you have no home charging option). The analogy is also apt there in most "free" things. They don't limit explicitly how much you take, but they also don't encourage you to take with no restraints. Actually thinking more closely, I think this actually is closer to first principles, it strips away the situation to examine the fundamental issue at hand and is applicable to so many situations ("free" things with no explicit limits).

It's fine you don't feel any guilt about this, but I think the OP does, or he would not ask here (I'm pretty sure plenty have already done what he is looking to do, but he is the first to ask people's opinion of it here).

 

[Danal]

Yes, feel free to think less of me for thinking less of him :smile:..

I actually kinda like you, from your posts over time; I just used your quote because it was handy.

 

[callmesam]

Tesla does not say you can't do this. However, they also do not say you SHOULD do this (with the exception of if you have no home charging option). The analogy is also apt there in most "free" things. They don't limit explicitly how much you take, but they also don't encourage you to take with no restraints.

It's fine you don't feel any guilt about this, but I think the OP does, or he would not ask here.

I think that the Supercharging network is a new beast and there is no roadmap, which is why the OP asked his questions.

The fact that his character was attacked repeatedly for making an honest inquiry is one drawback of any forum but NOT evidence of a guilty mind.

The fact that I paid $2000 for access for life doesn't seem to change your mind, which is curious.

How often am I allowed to Supercharge before I'm "somewhat unethical?"

Once a week? Once a month?

I remain unconvinced by any argument that drivers are in a better position to know or respond to network congestion than Tesla Motors.

I see towncars and taxis using the Superchargers.

Are they acting "somewhat unethical?"

How should they be governed?

- - - Updated - - -

As you try to make others feel guilty by your words ... love the irony on this forum at times.

A poster claimed unlimited Supercharging is "somewhat unethical".

I wrote please don't listen to people trying to make you feel guilty for doing what TM has asked. "FREE FOR LIFE"

Unfortunately, that isn't me "trying to make others feel guilty by your words" but me facing the reality that people often try to shame others, unnecessarily.

 

[Danal]

Tesla does not say you can't do this. However, they also do not say you SHOULD do this...

Actually, they do. That's the point that a couple of us have been making. Encouraging long-distance travel and encouraging all uses of SCs are not exclusive.

Do an absolutely cold read with no pre-conceptions. Tesla explicitly says we should use SCs. In fact, they say it as soon as possible. The first four words of the supercharger page at teslamotors.com are: "Superchargers are free connectors...". They then talk about the speed difference to other sorts of charing, where SCs are typically located, how to use them, what their advantages are, and many other things. Absolutely not this slightest hint of guilt inducement for any particular use case. Click through to the next page and read "Using a Supercharger". 23 or so guidelines in Q/A format... and NOT ONE WORD about anything discussed in this thread as guilt inducing.

Again, please read what Tesla actually says we, as owners, SHOULD do, as a cold read, no preconceptions. They absolutely DO say we SHOULD do this.

I almost hesitate to quote again; but this is a direct copy paste from that second page:

How often can I Supercharge?

Customers are free to use the network as much as they like.

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

I really like my analogy on this a few posts back:

Let's say you buy an ICE car from Toyota and Toyota gives you free gasoline for life of your car. The only catch is you need to use their stations to fill up. It happens their gasoline station is on your way to work and you only need to fill up twice or thrice a week at their station. However, you also have the ability to pay $2K to install a fueling station at home and fill up at home. But you will still need to pay for the gasoline you use at your home fueling station.

I can confidently say anyone would choose to fill up at the Toyota fueling station predominately.

Now say your situation is different. The Toyota fueling station requires a 100 miles detour every time you fill up at their station just because of your home and work location. Moreover, each refill will take longer because you depleted more gasoline compared to the case above. And you would have to stop there everyday or maybe even multiple times within a day just to get enough gasoline to get to work/home and maybe other destinations. You would probably say, screw it, I rather just pay for the installation and fuel up at home.

Replace Toyota with Tesla, ICE with Model S, and gasoline with electricity to get your answer.

 

[hans]

I think of the "free for life" supercharger like an "all you can eat" buffet. Can you make repeated visits to the buffet? Yes. Are you hurting others if you take seconds, thirds, fourths, or even more? Not likely. Would I think you were strange if you told me you often skip breakfast and lunch in order to save money by getting all your days food at a fixed price dinner? Yes.

 

[callmesam]

I almost hesitate to quote again; but this is a direct copy paste from that second page:

How often can I Supercharge?

Customers are free to use the network as much as they like.

I'm not sure why we need to go beyond this.

TM would like their charging stations to be so popular that every hotel, mall, athletic venue, airport and attraction has 100 Supercharging spots.

Then once the snake charger is complete and the autopilot allows for autopark and automove, there won't be anyone overstaying their charge. The car will drop the owner at the front entrance, park itself in a Supercharging spot, receive a charge and find a noncharging parking spot until summoned by an owner. (All assumed to be on private property)

TM will improve charging speeds and battery sizes.

Then we'll all wonder why we were worrying about a future where Tesla couldn't figure out/afford to size their Supercharging network.

 

[Arbitrage]

It's tough to come up with a good analogy because the SC network is such a limited resource, especially in some areas. The main reason some people are annoyed in this thread is that the worse case scenario is very painful if the chargers are in use. It could, in theory, cost an extra hour or more if there is waiting for a charger to open up and the slower charge rate from being fully utilized. Now, most of the time there's no extra wait but there are a few SCs (especially SJC) that are packed so that worst case scenario always comes to mind.

The gas/condiments/buffet don't run out per say or cause major inconvenience. If a gas station, even free gas, is filled up, going to the one across the street is basically fine and may cost maybe 5 minutes. Downgrading to an L2 charger is just not viable in comparison to a SC.

As mentioned above, if it gets to the point where there are 100 stalls/charger and each charge is only 5 minutes, then no one would care if people don't charge at home. But with the current state of the network, it'll hit a raw nerve until we get to that point.

It'll sort itself out mostly (at least until the 3 comes out). If the new SD charger gets completely camped by a bunch of Qualcomm/taxi people, then that 110V will look a little better.

 

[CHGolferJim]

Of course Tesla is going to encourage people to use Superchargers......they're one of their main product differentiators, their primary strategy for overcoming the range objection to electric cars, a barrier to entry, and key to their growth goals.

 

[bonnie]

I think of the "free for life" supercharger like an "all you can eat" buffet. Can you make repeated visits to the buffet? Yes. Are you hurting others if you take seconds, thirds, fourths, or even more? Not likely. Would I think you were strange if you told me you often skip breakfast and lunch in order to save money by getting all your days food at a fixed price dinner? Yes.

This ^.

I think current & future owners, while mindful of the fact that Tesla has clearly stated to 'help yourself', balance that with the fact that if a larger segment of owners (vs. just a few owners) abuse that offer, then it may not exist for future owners. And this feels a little like abuse of the system to me. But the OP has every *right* to do what he does, even if it impacts others negatively.

 

[tga]

I think of the "free for life" supercharger like an "all you can eat" buffet. Can you make repeated visits to the buffet? Yes. Are you hurting others if you take seconds, thirds, fourths, or even more? Not likely. Would I think you were strange if you told me you often skip breakfast and lunch in order to save money by getting all your days food at a fixed price dinner? Yes.

To carry the analogy further, while the restaurant calls it an "all you can eat" buffet, and won't stop you from going back for seconds or thirds, at some point they're going to start getting annoyed with you for abusing the system and costing them money. Is that fourths? Fifths?

Yes, the supercharger network is a great tool for marketing and eliminating range anxiety, but does Tesla want to pay your entire electric bill? I doubt it. If too many people do this, do they start getting annoyed/rethink the terms of the program? Maybe.

 

[callmesam]

As long as were picking analogies why not pick analogy of the gym membership. You paid advance for lifetime gym membership and you can go as often as you want. Yes the gym might be full if you go every single day and every single person every single day the business wouldn't function anymore but the gym says please come as often as you want.

Don't they realize that if people take them at their word their business won't work?

 

[deonb]

Don't they realize that if people take them at their word their business won't work?

There are tons of businesses that sell and size their products based on expected user under- consumption, rather than max-possible consumption.

Internet service
Cellphone service (Phone service for that matter)
Emergency Rooms
Insurance
Police force / Fire departments

That doesn't make them sleazy.

If you want to always be guaranteed a 200mb/s connection just for you, and a cellphone that is guaranteed not to drop out in a crowd - no matter what, and an emergency room bed that's always available the moment you walk in... etc... well, be prepared to pay many orders of magnitude higher for your services than what you're paying now.

 

[skilly]

I think of the "free for life" supercharger like an "all you can eat" buffet. Can you make repeated visits to the buffet? Yes. Are you hurting others if you take seconds, thirds, fourths, or even more? Not likely. Would I think you were strange if you told me you often skip breakfast and lunch in order to save money by getting all your days food at a fixed price dinner? Yes.

I think people at the Harris Ranch Station leave their car in a stall long after a charge is finished in search of all you can eat...I don't care how often you use it (thats what its for...), just get out of the way once you're done.

 

[callmesam]

There are tons of businesses that sell and size their products based on expected user under- consumption, rather than max-possible consumption.

Internet service
Cellphone service (Phone service for that matter)
Emergency Rooms
Insurance
Police force / Fire departments

That doesn't make them sleazy.

If you want to always be guaranteed a 200mb/s connection just for you, and a cellphone that is guaranteed not to drop out in a crowd - no matter what, and an emergency room bed that's always available the moment you walk in... etc... well, be prepared to pay many orders of magnitude higher for your services than what you're paying now.

I agree it doesn't make the provider sleazy. Going to the gym every single day does not make the gym member "somewhat unethical" either. I think we should leave it up to Tesla motors to size the network properly and not worry ourselves or shame each other into a "appropriate" amount of charging.