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Supercharging to reduce ownership cost of a Model S.

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Tesla should partner up with a gas company like Shell etc., to offer a supercharging gas station, at existing gas stations and increase the supercharger network footprint like crazy. This would be good for Tesla owners as we get a bigger SC network, and good for Shell that it gives them clean air creds.

There are places in the world where this would naturally work, like Autogrill in Italy. Or the Engen 1-stop network in South Africa.

Those types of "stopover" gas stations already have 24/7 sitdown cafes or restaurants, areas to walk your dog, play centers for kids, substantial parking lots etc.

Shell U.S. on the other hand isn't generally a good place for an extended stop. Most of the time there isn't even a seating area.

I don't know why dedicated highway gas stations have never become very popular in the U.S., but they're not. There are definitely one-offs, but not large networks. So there isn't a silver bullet company here that Tesla can just sign a single deal with.
 
What is with the indignation? If you own a Model S you paid $2000 extra for supercharging. You have every right to use it as you see fit.
Incorrect. As a hypothetical example, I could rig up a semi truck with a dozen power packs inside and charge them up at the supercharger by hacking the protocol using my car's VIN. Not only is this not a good idea, it's not "my right" to do so.

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Is there a written statement from Tesla anywhere that Model 3 Super Charging will be lifetime free?
Nope. In fact, there are indications that this will not be the case.
 
Incorrect. As a hypothetical example, I could rig up a semi truck with a dozen power packs inside and charge them up at the supercharger by hacking the protocol using my car's VIN. Not only is this not a good idea, it's not "my right" to do so.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. You get to charge your Model S at a Supercharger as much as you like. A hacked bank of batteries is like going to an all-you-can-eat buffet and smuggling out food... not the intent. I know I'm arguing "intent" here, but Tesla is pretty clear you can take your Model S (not a semi full of batteries) to a Supercharger as often as you like. Nowhere do they say otherwise.
 
I dont understand some people's vehement opposition to this. It is akin to class warfare i guess. Just because it doesnt favor them to do what i plan to do they dont want anyone else to benefit from it.
You're misunderstanding at least some of the posts.

Speaking for myself there is direct material harm in two ways to me:
1. Damaging to Tesla brand -- which hurts both TSLA (stockholders) and the viability of EVs that I actually want to drive (only Tesla currently provides these).
2. Damaging to travelers (including myself) relying on the supercharger network to make long distance travel viable for those that have limited time for vacation (i.e. people that are employed)

I have no idea where you get "class warfare" from this.
 
I wish,

Tesla would offer an option, especially for Model 3,
- Free supercharging included for life for a fee, or
- Supercharging built on a per use or monthly fee, tied to your mytesla account and your car automatically communicates supercharger usage to Tesla and bills your credit card.

I'm not convinced Tesla will go that route. I think it depends on how they'll be advertising the Model 3.
Is it a city car? Then your approach may work
Is it a travel anywhere car like the Model S? Then they can't say "you can travel anywhere, but you have to pay us big bucks" because it would lead people away towards other EVs (assuming by that point there will be a bigger EV charging infrastructure)

Personally, I think that Model 3s will likely come with the Supercharger hardware, and enablement will be a surcharge like on the 60s (at least on the base $35k model, maybe priced in for the higher priced models). However, I think enablement will not include unlimited charging for 3s, but instead, something like unlimited charging for the first the first year, and then 100 kWh (or some other value) free per <insert interval here>. This provides the incentive for occasional users to buy into the Supercharger infrastructure fund, but also reasonably limit their use. One could also think that this is essentially Kutta's #2, but with a goodwill buffer prior to charging.
 
It's not so bad. ... 120V charging efficiency vs. 240V. It's roughly 73% vs. 85%.
27% waste vs 15% waste -- nearly double. I call that pretty bad.

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I have no idea where you get "class warfare" from this.
Oh, wait, now I see it. You were talking about your future posts....
If I was Elon, I would make it pay per use for the Model 3. Use pricing to exclude people and dynamically change the pricing for the model 3 users to exclude those that don't really need it to prevent congestion.
So you want to be able to use it free, locally. But you don't want Model 3 users to have the same privilege because you don't want them blocking a spot for you when you stop by on the way home from work? If I've misrepresented, please clarify.
Nope you got it right.

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What is with the indignation? If you own a Model S you paid $2000 extra for supercharging. You have every right to use it as you see fit.
Incorrect. As a hypothetical example, I could rig up a semi truck with a dozen power packs inside and charge them up at the supercharger by hacking the protocol using my car's VIN. Not only is this not a good idea, it's not "my right" to do so.
I don't think that's a fair comparison.
Huh? There's no comparison involved here. Lerxt offered an absolute assertion. I merely provided as simple example where it's clearly absurd for that assertion to be correct.
 
I throw a party at my house and invite all of you, specifically to come eat. When you show up, I greet each of you at the door and say "There are snack trays distributed through the back gardens to make it easier to move around, eat all you want.". As you party, you also discover a couple of snack trays in the indoor lounge.

Does the presence of the multiple trays out doors, and my encouragement toward those trays making movement easier, does that somehow make it unethical for a given person who finds themselves mostly in the lounge to eat from the trays in the lounge? Subject to normal party etiquette as the catering staff keeps the trays full? Does someone skipping dinner before they come over and therefore taking a lot of snacks seem unethical when they were invited to come eat?


Everyone who's made some kind of case for "damage to Tesla from consuming SC electricity in a way that Tesla's business model doesn't intend" could make the same case for "taking advantage of the party host..." in the same way. Yet I find it very hard to believe that someone would use the same negativity to describe someone who took all snacks from one tray (subject to etiquette), or who skipped dinner before coming. When they were invited for the specific purpose of eating.

I can't see the difference between the "come over and eat" metaphor and what OP is proposing with his home-SC-work scenario. I also cannot see where anyone has successfully found the slightest shred of quote from Tesla that even hints "this use case proper; that use case discouraged". Again, the presence of SCs on the highway and Telsa's statements that these encourage EV travel (or the party host's statement that there are trays in the garden to encourage mixing)... those do NOT somehow make it unethical to take a snack from the tray in the lounge... err, uh, charge at a local SC. The presence of one set has no bearing on the fact that you were specifically invited to eat from them all.



Like the OP, I wish to thank everyone for the reasoned discourse. This discussion has been very enlightening, and in my case, let me to a new set of facts, and therefore a different position from where I started. Like the OP, I'm done unless someone brings new information, or a really unique dialog, to bear.
 
I don't know why dedicated highway gas stations have never become very popular in the U.S., but they're not. There are definitely one-offs, but not large networks. So there isn't a silver bullet company here that Tesla can just sign a single deal with.

There used to be Stuckey's and Nickerson Farms on all of the routes that my family took road trips on. We often stopped for a meal and would check out the gift shop and buy a patch for each city/state/attraction that was located nearby.

There used to be over 350 Stuckey's locations. Now most of those Stuckey's and Nickerson Farms buildings sit empty along the interstate. Some have been remodeled but you can still tell from the distinctive architecture what used to be there a generation ago.
 
As many have said this has been a very enlightening thread. I can understand both sides.

I personally looked at Supercharging as a way to supplement home charging. I have an item at home that uses a decent amount of electrical during the day and I am currently evaluating if moving to Edison's EV plan would work for me.

I installed a 14- 50 plug at home when I took delivery of my car a few weeks ago which I so far have used often.

My dad is not well. The drive to his nursing home is 120 miles round trip and I try to see him weekly. There is a Supercharger on the route to him. I also golf the courses near the same Supercharger when I am in town.

Most of the time I stopped at the mall the Supercharger is at for lunch on my golf days. I continue to do that now but also stop there for dinner heading home from my dad / folks house. The only difference is I plug in and charge. I do this maybe 2 times a week. Three at the most.

I put a lot of miles on my cars and lease them. I have never been able to take my personal car on a road trip because of this. I always rent.

So, while I understand the idea of using the network only for road trips you are describing a situation I will never be in.

I keep away from the Supercharger on what I would consider road trip days. And while I have yet to see it if the Supercharger was full and I could squeak on home and charge I most certainly would.

I also enjoy meeting fellow owners and talking to perspective ones that show up because they know there will be owners there to talk to an ask questions. I have enjoyed being an ambassador for the brand and hopefully one who still would have the respect from the community even though I am not there road tripping nor will I ever be.
 
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I also cannot see where anyone has successfully found the slightest shred of quote from Tesla that even hints "this use case proper; that use case discouraged".

That's because such a thing doesn't exist. Any snippet from a Tesla website used as supporting evidence that 'local supercharging is unethical' is just someone's creative interpretation, very much biased towards how they want to view the situation.

What is really comes down to is that nobody wants to wait at a supercharger for a stall, especially if they're waiting for someone that's just trying to save $3.85 in electricity that night...and who could blame anyone for getting peeved at that kind of situation? The moral of the story is and has always been to use a little bit of common courtesy when charging locally...even if you're the only one extending that courtesy.
 
That's because such a thing doesn't exist. Any snippet from a Tesla website used as supporting evidence that 'local supercharging is unethical' is just someone's creative interpretation, very much biased towards how they want to view the situation.

What is really comes down to is that nobody wants to wait at a supercharger for a stall, especially if they're waiting for someone that's just trying to save $3.85 in electricity that night...and who could blame anyone for getting peeved at that kind of situation? The moral of the story is and has always been to use a little bit of common courtesy when charging locally...even if you're the only one extending that courtesy.

I was trying to avoid this thread, but I can't help but put it out there. Ethics does not need a sign or explicit ban. For example restaurants will not have a sign that says: don't take more napkins or sauce packets than necessary, especially if you are using it for home. However, even in the absence of such a sign, I'm pretty sure a lot of people will feel someone who shoves a stack of "free" napkins into their bag for use at home is being unethical (although the person doing it usually doesn't, because they "paid" for it with their meal).

And looking at the Tesla's text on this, it's blatantly obvious the primary use case is roadtrips/long distance travel.
minimize stops during long distance travel
...
have enough range to get to your destination or the next station
...
We strategically place Superchargers along well-traveled highways
...
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
How does Tesla decide where to put the Superchargers?
Tesla places Superchargers along the most popular road trip routes, accounting for distance and local driving conditions.
...
What is a Supercharger and why is it unique?
enabling convenient long distance travel in Model S.
...
Why is it free?
We want to encourage Model S owners to take road trips.
http://www.teslamotors.com/support/supercharging

Tesla Superchargers enable free long distance electric driving
...
Model S drivers enjoy the convenience of plugging in at home or at the office so they’ve always got plenty of charge for their daily driving needs. Tesla’s global Supercharger network makes road trips exceptionally easy and delightful.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/2000-superchargers

I'm not seeing how anyone can say with a straight face that Tesla does not primarily intend the supercharger to be used for roadtrips and long distance travel given how much it references such usage. And all of the marketing done so far for superchargers (recording breaking trips across country) demonstrate long distance travel, not local travel. In fact the last blog entry suggests that drivers use home/office charging for daily driving and supercharger network for roadtrips.

The only suggestion I can find in all that material that is even close to what the OP is suggesting is this part:
We strategically place Superchargers along well-traveled highways and in congested city centers.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...of-a-Model-S?p=1027218&viewfull=1#post1027218
I touched on this on another comment, but previously it said this:
We strategically place Superchargers along well-traveled highways and in congested city centers where home charging is difficult.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150113072623/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

That "home charging is difficult" reference was removed in the same time frame where Elon was getting a lot of flack for low sales in China (one of the countries where superchargers are installed in congested city centers) and he blamed sales people there for overemphasizing the difficulty of charging in China.
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon...-have-been-blown-way-out-of-proportion-2015-2

And the city superchargers (multiple per city) were added to address cities where people live in apartments without home charging (I can dig up the references if necessary, most of it are mentioned in presentations with shareholders/customers).

I do agree someone that moves their car is obviously much better than someone who doesn't. But why people would think it is even little bit unethical (and not have the same thoughts for someone using for roadtrips) I think largely has to do with how Tesla markets the superchargers.
 
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It's clear no one is going to change anyone's mind here. Either you think it is unethical or you feel entitled.

All I ask is that if you're someone who charges locally to avoid paying for electricity, please be kind to road trip warriors if they're coming through and don't make them wait behind you. Let them get on their way. You can always charge tomorrow. And if you're coming by my house, I'm going to hide the extra toilet paper and no, you may not top off while here. :) For the record.