TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Supercharging vs Urban Chargers

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by TrevTremaine, Jan 11, 2018.

  1. TrevTremaine

    TrevTremaine Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    516
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    OK, so from my understanding of it, the urban chargers will help increase the rollout of chargers being installed quicker than if it continued to solely be SuperChargers.

    My questions has to do with the differences therein:
    1. What are the significant differences between the two types?
    2. Does the Urban Charger actually utilize the Dual Chargers now being installed into Model Ss and Xs by default?
    3. Does that mean those who don't have those Dual chargers will be limited in the charging rate?
    4. What are the differences in time frames to charge on each type of charger?
    5. Where is the documentation or can someone point me to a decent article explaining it all?
    I'm asking as there are some urban chargers being installed nearby, and I'm wondering how they're going to be best utilized - whether to do a full charge or boost charge enough to get to a final destination.

    Thanks!
     
  2. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Messages:
    6,684
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Lots of confusion apparent in your questions.

    Urban chargers are just superchargers with lower peak power, actually not much less than the first superchargers introduced in 2013. They’re still superchargers, and as such have nothing to do with the charger in the car. Superchargers deliver DC to the battery bypassing the onboard charger. The car charger is for connecting to AC charging (outlet, J1772, or HPWC).

    The currently available cars do not have “dual chargers”. That was an option in the early Model S, which came with one 40A charger and had option for a second for total of 80A. The current cars have a single charger of 48 or 72A. Again this choice has NOTHING to do with suoercharging.
     
    • Informative x 2
    • Like x 2
    • Helpful x 1
  3. BerTX

    BerTX Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,758
    Location:
    Texas/Washington
    The other difference is that the urban chargers are not shared power between two stalls. The full (although as @TexasEV says, lower) power goes to whichever stall you pull into. Presumably this is simpler, but also eliminates a lot of confusion and frustration for those who want to have a better idea of how long they will be charging.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Informative x 1
  4. Snow Drift

    Snow Drift Slip Start: [Activated]

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2016
    Messages:
    924
    Location:
    Long Island
    Keep it simple: It’s about half the speed.

    Normal SC has max 120 kW
    Shared Normal SC splits, so 60 kW (actually variable)
    Urban SC has max 72 kW (no sharing allowed)

    So basically, the Urban version is about the same as using a Shared Normal SC, which is almost half the speed of an unshared Normal SC.
     
  5. BerTX

    BerTX Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,758
    Location:
    Texas/Washington
    #5 BerTX, Jan 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
    Mmmm, no. The split is not even -- the first car at a split SC gets whatever it needs, and the second car gets whatever is left There are times that the split system will be faster, and times when the single system will be faster, if you are the second car plugging into the split.

    Throw into that the fact that small-battery cars charge at a slower rate, and cars that supercharge too frequently may have their charge speed reduced, and it is a real mish-mash of factors, meaning you have no idea how long it will take to charge if you are the second car in a split.

    Part of the idea of the urban charger is that you will get more predictable charge times.
     
    • Like x 4
  6. Snow Drift

    Snow Drift Slip Start: [Activated]

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2016
    Messages:
    924
    Location:
    Long Island
    If one car goes to a normal SC they can get up to 120 kW.

    If one car goes to an urban SC they can get up to 72 kW.

    If you would be eligible for 73-120 kW it would be better to use a normal SC with just one user.

    Add a second user to a normal SC and the scenario changes and gets complicated.
     
  7. Ray95120

    Ray95120 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Several posts above have mentioned "what the Tesla needs" in determining the A/B split at at superchargers. What exactly determines what the Tesla needs?

    I've noticed on my new S75 that the charging might start at 170 mph then gradually drop to half that amount even tho it is well below 90% charge and even when there is no vehicle on the other half of the split.

    This variability really make it hard to plan for charging time when traveling.
     
  8. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Messages:
    6,684
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Well below 90% charge is still well into the charging taper!

    Also be aware that the charging mph shown is not the instantaneous rate, rather it’s the average for the charging session. The kW shown is the instantaneous rate.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Love x 1
  9. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2015
    Messages:
    2,344
    Location:
    Boise, ID
    o_O Uh, yeah...that's what his wording "(actually variable)" meant.
     
    • Like x 1
  10. Rossy

    Rossy Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    Hillsboro,Oregon
    I’m at the Lynnwood WA Urban supercharger. Earlier today I think I received 72Kwh, but I didn’t pay attention (Stall 1AorB)
    Now before checking in at my hotel I’m getting 62kwh at about 50%. In stall 5A.
    Stall 5B was only supplying ~42kwh.
    Stalls 1A and 1B we’re ramping from 0-40kwh. I’m not sure if this is normal behavior or not but charging profile seems different from regular super charger or ChADaMo’s I’ve used.
    At the moment I’m ramping to 68kwh so likely my battery was cold earlier. (45F outdoor temp).
    First experience at urban style SC.
     
  11. Rossy

    Rossy Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    Hillsboro,Oregon
    Woot getting 74 kWH now !
     

    Attached Files:

  12. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Messages:
    6,684
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    There’s no pairing of urban superchargers, so you will get whatever your battery can take based on its SOC, up to 72 kW (not kWh).
     
    • Informative x 1
  13. Fiver

    Fiver Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2015
    Messages:
    1,358
    Location:
    Utah
    Urban superchargers are essentially the same as normal superchargers. They still are pairs, but for Urban ones the pairs are limited to a max output of ~74kW each individually. The cabinets behind the scenes are the same as the old school ones.
    In the urban setup the cabinets split the 145kW max evenly to each of the two stalls they feed (the ~72-74kW max).
    When set up in the normal supercharger config, they split the power based on whatever car plugged in first getting priority, and the second car to plug into the pair gets leftovers. (Max of 120kW to first car, leftovers to second. As first car tapers, second car's charge rate increases)
     
  14. BerTX

    BerTX Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,758
    Location:
    Texas/Washington
    Interesting. I guess I had thought they were more separated. So if what you are saying is correct, it would be very simple to turn existing variable shared Superchargers into what we are now calling Urban Superchargers, just some rewiring. I wonder if that is in the plans for some locations?
     
  15. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    9,892
    Location:
    Toronto, ON
    Some have reported in other threads that they are seeing "full power" (i.e. far in excess of 74 kW) at Urban sites.
     
  16. BerTX

    BerTX Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,758
    Location:
    Texas/Washington
    So maybe the first stall gets full power until somebody plugs into the other paired stall, then they both drop to 72 kW? So basically a MINIMUM available of 72kW when you plug in?
     
  17. Fiver

    Fiver Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2015
    Messages:
    1,358
    Location:
    Utah
    This is an interesting idea. I mean, really it's all software so they could try whatever they want.
     
  18. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2015
    Messages:
    2,344
    Location:
    Boise, ID
    That really would make a lot more sense. If you're the only car there, why limit it to lower power?
     
  19. BerTX

    BerTX Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,758
    Location:
    Texas/Washington
    I have wondered if the indications are that the very high rates, done frequently, are less desirable. They are assuming the urban chargers will be the only source of charging for some folks, so they are okay with cutting back the rate to improve battery longevity.

    Pure speculation.
     
  20. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    9,892
    Location:
    Toronto, ON
    That actually makes a lot of sense...
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC