Supercharging vs Urban Chargers

[TrevTremaine]

OK, so from my understanding of it, the urban chargers will help increase the rollout of chargers being installed quicker than if it continued to solely be SuperChargers.

My questions has to do with the differences therein:

1. What are the significant differences between the two types?
   
2. Does the Urban Charger actually utilize the Dual Chargers now being installed into Model Ss and Xs by default?
3. Does that mean those who don't have those Dual chargers will be limited in the charging rate?
   
4. What are the differences in time frames to charge on each type of charger?
   
5. Where is the documentation or can someone point me to a decent article explaining it all?

I'm asking as there are some urban chargers being installed nearby, and I'm wondering how they're going to be best utilized - whether to do a full charge or boost charge enough to get to a final destination.

Thanks!

 

[TexasEV]

Lots of confusion apparent in your questions.

Urban chargers are just superchargers with lower peak power, actually not much less than the first superchargers introduced in 2013. They’re still superchargers, and as such have nothing to do with the charger in the car. Superchargers deliver DC to the battery bypassing the onboard charger. The car charger is for connecting to AC charging (outlet, J1772, or HPWC).

The currently available cars do not have “dual chargers”. That was an option in the early Model S, which came with one 40A charger and had option for a second for total of 80A. The current cars have a single charger of 48 or 72A. Again this choice has NOTHING to do with suoercharging.

 

[BerTX]

The other difference is that the urban chargers are not shared power between two stalls. The full (although as @TexasEV says, lower) power goes to whichever stall you pull into. Presumably this is simpler, but also eliminates a lot of confusion and frustration for those who want to have a better idea of how long they will be charging.

 

[Snow Drift]

Keep it simple: It’s about half the speed.

Normal SC has max 120 kW
Shared Normal SC splits, so 60 kW (actually variable)
Urban SC has max 72 kW (no sharing allowed)

So basically, the Urban version is about the same as using a Shared Normal SC, which is almost half the speed of an unshared Normal SC.

 

[BerTX]

Keep it simple: It’s about half the speed.

Normal SC has max 120 kW
Shared Normal SC splits, so 60 kW (actually variable)
Urban SC has max 72 kW (no sharing allowed)

So basically, the Urban version is about the same as using a Shared Normal SC, which is almost half the speed of an unshared Normal SC.

Mmmm, no. The split is not even -- the first car at a split SC gets whatever it needs, and the second car gets whatever is left There are times that the split system will be faster, and times when the single system will be faster, if you are the second car plugging into the split.

Throw into that the fact that small-battery cars charge at a slower rate, and cars that supercharge too frequently may have their charge speed reduced, and it is a real mish-mash of factors, meaning you have no idea how long it will take to charge if you are the second car in a split.

Part of the idea of the urban charger is that you will get more predictable charge times.

 

[Snow Drift]

Mmmm, no. The split is not even -- the first car at a split SC gets whatever it needs, and the second car gets whatever is left There are times that the split system will be faster, and times when the single system will be faster, if you are the second car plugging into the split.

Throw into that the fact that small-battery cars charge at a slower rate, and cars that supercharge too frequently may have their charge speed reduced, and it is a real mish-mash of factors, meaning you have no idea how long it will take to charge if you are the second car in a split.

Part of the idea of the urban charger is that you will get more predictable charge times.

If one car goes to a normal SC they can get up to 120 kW.

If one car goes to an urban SC they can get up to 72 kW.

If you would be eligible for 73-120 kW it would be better to use a normal SC with just one user.

Add a second user to a normal SC and the scenario changes and gets complicated.

 

[Ray95120]

Several posts above have mentioned "what the Tesla needs" in determining the A/B split at at superchargers. What exactly determines what the Tesla needs?

I've noticed on my new S75 that the charging might start at 170 mph then gradually drop to half that amount even tho it is well below 90% charge and even when there is no vehicle on the other half of the split.

This variability really make it hard to plan for charging time when traveling.

 

[TexasEV]

Well below 90% charge is still well into the charging taper!

Also be aware that the charging mph shown is not the instantaneous rate, rather it’s the average for the charging session. The kW shown is the instantaneous rate.

 

[Rocky_H]

Mmmm, no. The split is not even

Uh, yeah...that's what his wording "(actually variable)" meant.

 

[Rossy]

I’m at the Lynnwood WA Urban supercharger. Earlier today I think I received 72Kwh, but I didn’t pay attention (Stall 1AorB)
Now before checking in at my hotel I’m getting 62kwh at about 50%. In stall 5A.
Stall 5B was only supplying ~42kwh.
Stalls 1A and 1B we’re ramping from 0-40kwh. I’m not sure if this is normal behavior or not but charging profile seems different from regular super charger or ChADaMo’s I’ve used.
At the moment I’m ramping to 68kwh so likely my battery was cold earlier. (45F outdoor temp).
First experience at urban style SC.

 

[Rossy]

Woot getting 74 kWH now !

 

[TexasEV]

There’s no pairing of urban superchargers, so you will get whatever your battery can take based on its SOC, up to 72 kW (not kWh).

 

[Fiver]

Urban superchargers are essentially the same as normal superchargers. They still are pairs, but for Urban ones the pairs are limited to a max output of ~74kW each individually. The cabinets behind the scenes are the same as the old school ones.
In the urban setup the cabinets split the 145kW max evenly to each of the two stalls they feed (the ~72-74kW max).
When set up in the normal supercharger config, they split the power based on whatever car plugged in first getting priority, and the second car to plug into the pair gets leftovers. (Max of 120kW to first car, leftovers to second. As first car tapers, second car's charge rate increases)

 

[BerTX]

Urban superchargers are essentially the same as normal superchargers. They still are pairs, but for Urban ones the pairs are limited to a max output of ~74kW each individually. The cabinets behind the scenes are the same as the old school ones.
In the urban setup the cabinets split the 145kW max evenly to each of the two stalls they feed (the ~72-74kW max).
When set up in the normal supercharger config, they split the power based on whatever car plugged in first getting priority, and the second car to plug into the pair gets leftovers. (Max of 120kW to first car, leftovers to second. As first car tapers, second car's charge rate increases)

Interesting. I guess I had thought they were more separated. So if what you are saying is correct, it would be very simple to turn existing variable shared Superchargers into what we are now calling Urban Superchargers, just some rewiring. I wonder if that is in the plans for some locations?

 

[mknox]

Interesting. I guess I had thought they were more separated. So if what you are saying is correct, it would be very simple to turn existing variable shared Superchargers into what we are now calling Urban Superchargers, just some rewiring. I wonder if that is in the plans for some locations?

Some have reported in other threads that they are seeing "full power" (i.e. far in excess of 74 kW) at Urban sites.

 

[BerTX]

Some have reported in other threads that they are seeing "full power" (i.e. far in excess of 74 kW) at Urban sites.

So maybe the first stall gets full power until somebody plugs into the other paired stall, then they both drop to 72 kW? So basically a MINIMUM available of 72kW when you plug in?

 

[Fiver]

So maybe the first stall gets full power until somebody plugs into the other paired stall, then they both drop to 72 kW? So basically a MINIMUM available of 72kW when you plug in?

This is an interesting idea. I mean, really it's all software so they could try whatever they want.

 

[Rocky_H]

So maybe the first stall gets full power until somebody plugs into the other paired stall, then they both drop to 72 kW? So basically a MINIMUM available of 72kW when you plug in?

That really would make a lot more sense. If you're the only car there, why limit it to lower power?

 

[BerTX]

That really would make a lot more sense. If you're the only car there, why limit it to lower power?

I have wondered if the indications are that the very high rates, done frequently, are less desirable. They are assuming the urban chargers will be the only source of charging for some folks, so they are okay with cutting back the rate to improve battery longevity.

Pure speculation.

 

[mknox]

I have wondered if the indications are that the very high rates, done frequently, are less desirable. They are assuming the urban chargers will be the only source of charging for some folks, so they are okay with cutting back the rate to improve battery longevity.

That actually makes a lot of sense...