Supercharging worth it/safe for the battery?

[Physicslawyer]

I'm trying to decide which way to go- buy before the end of the year, or wait. And, I want to make sure a MY makes sense.

We do not "need" another vehicle. We have two Priuses that we daily drive, a 2007 with 495k miles, and a 2017 Prime with 163k miles. Our other main cars are a Challenger, Corvette, and WRX, all manual. I can't drive any of these to work based on my commute.

My work commute is 120 miles round trip, it takes upwards of 2.5 hours in rush hour traffic. We have a vacation home we also travel to every weekend, which is 200 miles away.

I'm getting Priused out after 13 years. My main car before the Prius was an XJ8 Jaguar, so quite a difference. We will always keep a Prius for the reliability and fuel efficiency.

My husband has developed hip issues in one leg and the Prius Prime that we use every weekend bothers him. We also could use more room when we take longer trips. The efficiency of the Tesla seems to make more sense. I was debating going with a Mercedes E400 Coupe, but the MY seems more logical.

Here are my main questions:

(1) Would a MY make sense to use for 50k a year? Could it handle it? Would I likely need a new battery in a few years? I know MS batteries can cost 25k and nobody knows the M3/MY battery cost, but I remember seeing 18k on the forum for someone who got one replaced under warranty. I would not want to spend that much in a few years. I could drive it less than 50k and use the Prius instead.

(2) Would free supercharging make sense? If we used it for say 30k miles, would I be hurting the battery? We could install chargers at home. Articles and posts seem to go both ways, saying the battery would be unaffected, or that I would see degradation.

I'm wondering whether to buy now or wait (we don't need it now for transportation). Does a MY even make sense or should I be looking at a Rav 4 Prime etc based on our usage? (I would prefer a Tesla, of course)

Thank you for your input!

 

[kpinthebay]

Forgive me for being blunt, but judging by your handle and your post with five cars and two homes, money has no bounds for you. Also sounds like you work hard.

Work hard. Play hard. Get the Model Y Performance. I think you'll love the change from the Prius on your commute. And the extra space on your trips to the Hamptons. Nobody knows for sure the long term effects on the battery over 500k miles. But they seem fairly hardy and by the time they fail you, I feel like you would have gotten their useful life out of them?

I think you answered your own question at the end. "I would prefer a Tesla, of course"

 

[jcanoe]

I'm trying to decide which way to go- buy before the end of the year, or wait. And, I want to make sure a MY makes sense.

We do not "need" another vehicle. We have two Priuses that we daily drive, a 2007 with 495k miles, and a 2017 Prime with 163k miles. Our other main cars are a Challenger, Corvette, and WRX, all manual. I can't drive any of these to work based on my commute.

My work commute is 120 miles round trip, it takes upwards of 2.5 hours in rush hour traffic. We have a vacation home we also travel to every weekend, which is 200 miles away.

I'm getting Priused out after 13 years. My main car before the Prius was an XJ8 Jaguar, so quite a difference. We will always keep a Prius for the reliability and fuel efficiency.

My husband has developed hip issues in one leg and the Prius Prime that we use every weekend bothers him. We also could use more room when we take longer trips. The efficiency of the Tesla seems to make more sense. I was debating going with a Mercedes E400 Coupe, but the MY seems more logical.

Here are my main questions:

(1) Would a MY make sense to use for 50k a year? Could it handle it? Would I likely need a new battery in a few years? I know MS batteries can cost 25k and nobody knows the M3/MY battery cost, but I remember seeing 18k on the forum for someone who got one replaced under warranty. I would not want to spend that much in a few years. I could drive it less than 50k and use the Prius instead.

(2) Would free supercharging make sense? If we used it for say 30k miles, would I be hurting the battery? We could install chargers at home. Articles and posts seem to go both ways, saying the battery would be unaffected, or that I would see degradation.

I'm wondering whether to buy now or wait (we don't need it now for transportation). Does a MY even make sense or should I be looking at a Rav 4 Prime etc based on our usage? (I would prefer a Tesla, of course)

Thank you for your input!

You seem satisfied with Toyota products. The RAV4 Prime would make sense if you could locate one (this model has limited production as I recall.) That said, your Prius vehicles could be replaced with a pair of Model Ys.

For your 120 mile round trip commute you will not need to charge until you return home. If you can charge at work you may be able to do most of your weekday charging there and only need to charge at home on the weekend. No SC needed for this 120 mile commute. In any event you will want to install 240V home charging (32A, 40A or 48A works fastest) but that is not usually a large expense unless your garage is detached and you would need to install buried electrical conduit for the charging circuit.

You can use a SC as often as needed; the impact of frequent SC on the life of the battery is measurable but it is not going to limit your enjoyment of the Tesla vehicle. Because you drive 50k miles per year you will be buying tires at least 1X, possibly 2X per year.

There is no regular maintenance needed on the Tesla vehicle; no oil changes etc. or emissions testing. You simply plug in the Tesla; Tesla downloads over the air updates automatically with the latest software.

You are responsible for filling the washer fluid (no other fluid containers are accessible by the owner.) You will need to rotate the tires every 6k to 8k miles and put air in the tires. The cabin air filters (these are a pair) should be changed every 2 years. If you live in a region where the salt is applied to the road in winter Tesla wants to inspect, lubricate the brakes on the vehicle every year, otherwise every other year. That is all the maintenance that the Tesla Model Y requires. You will want to wash the Tesla either by hand or using a touchless car wash although some report using an automated car wash, one that uses brushes, with no issue.

Free SC for a year is currently available if you take delivery of a new Tesla Model 3 or Model Y before the end of the year.

Download the app for ABetterRoutePlanner or on your computer. Plan out some trips and you will see that you will rarely need more than one or two stops, 15 to 30 minutes duration each, at a SC if you can charge at your destination (vacation home.)

 

[HotIce]

You seem satisfied with Toyota products. The RAV4 Prime would make sense if you could locate one (this model has limited production as I recall.) That said, your Prius vehicles could be replaced with a pair of Model Ys.

You will want to install 240V home charging (32A, 40A or 48A works fastest) but that is not usually a large expense unless your garage is detached and you would need to install buried electrical conduit for the charging circuit.

You can use a SC as often as needed; the impact of frequent SC on the life of the battery is measurable but it is not going to limit your enjoyment of the Tesla vehicle. Because you drive 50k miles per year you will be buying tires at least 1X, possibly 2X per year. Free SC for a year is currently available if you take delivery of a new Tesla Model 3 or Model Y before the end of the year.

Download the app for ABetterRoutePlanner or on your computer. Plan out some trips and you will see that you will rarely need more than one or two stops, 15 to 30 minutes duration each, at a SC if you can charge at your destination (vacation home.)

Absolutely install the home charger. From what I've been told, it makes a world of a difference when you can just charge up at home.

 

[outdoors]

Couple thoughts:

Get your husband in a Y to make sure his comfort can be adjusted his liking. If one car isn't suiting definitely make sure the next one is.

Got to trust Tesla on the battery. I do. We do just under 50k a year per car. Covid-19 slowed us down, but now we are back to those levels. Degradation surprised us to be much less than we thought. We have used superchargers about 30% of time.

It's a change, but you seem to have an open mind to it along with a car collection that is from different realms. Model Y or even a pair would fit in nicely.

Good luck with your decision making we are all here to help

 

[silverstoned83]

Yes, it could handle it.. far better than a Prius could in my opinion and while being a FAR more pleasurable experience for the owner, especially for the long distance commuter. I’m kinda surprised that this is what the MY is up against in this comparison.

It would of course degrade differently when compared to a Prius, with plenty of potential of lasting even longer. Battery replacement is not something any owner should be considering, it makes no sense... you would replace the car once the battery doesn’t have the range you require anymore.

I have a relative that travels between Modesto and Fremont CA for work, which is over 130 miles round trip. She purposefully bought her M3 to take advantage of the free supercharging offer at the time (maybe 2 years ago?) and has been fully utilizing it since, with most of the miles charged being supplied from supercharging. I can confirm that supercharging does degrade the battery faster than charging on level 2. This is represented by the decreased max charge rate while supercharging and full charge range over the life of the battery when compared to using level 2 instead. The numbers are nothing huge or concerning, but there’s no doubt that it should be expected. There’s plenty of evidence on YouTube to support this, any lithium battery will behave this way.

It doesn’t hurt the battery, but supercharging does subject the pack to more stress, which increases the rate of degradation. The temperature and stress involved in transferring power at supercharger rates comes at a cost. Having said that, I will always use a supercharger when necessary.. but if I have a level 2 charger at the destination and can avoid having to charge during the trip, I would do that instead. By using this approach, and other techniques, you can control the rate of degradation so you can get the most miles out of the pack before it will reach the same level of degradation when compared to if you were supercharging the majority of the time.

 

[cpa]

If I can add two or three cents here:

The battery chemistry and battery management system employed by Tesla has changed and evolved over the years. One hopes that the newer models have better methods in place to ensure a long and enjoyable ownership period regardless of annual miles driven or frequency of Supercharging.

Many of us who purchased Tesla Model S back in the earlier days (2013-2015) have experienced nerfed Supercharging rates and reduced battery capacities. This occurred in the late spring of 2019, ostensibly after a handful of battery fires. A download soon after these events capped the SC rates and battery capacity. This was a backdoor solution that was not disclosed to us owners. Tesla did ultimately disclose that they did some tweaking "out of an abundance of caution," whatever that vague comment means.

This software downgrade increased Supercharging speeds by about 20% when the weather and battery were warm (generally late spring to early autumn depending on location) and increased speeds by about 50% during cooler months. (We need to remember that the original 85kWh batteries had a range of ~265 miles when new --about 230 miles in practice--and a 30-minute charge time from 15% to 65%. Now the max range is around 240 miles with a practical range of about 210.) This update also nerfed the regenerative braking inputs back into the battery when the weather was cooler. The individual battery cell maximum charge capacity was also reduced from 4.2 volts to 4.1 volts thereby foisting decreased range in our batteries. In addition, the phantom battery drain has risen substantially. Prior to one of the updates, cars would lose about 1-2% of charge in 24 hours or so. That has about doubled. There are other ancillary effects when the battery is 70% full and sits for a long period of time.

Of course the newer batteries can utilize the much faster version 3 Supercharger speeds, so any putative future reduction in charging speed might not be that onerous. Time will tell!

Suffice it to say that many feel that Tesla seems more focused on avoiding warranty claims on alleged defective engineering or testing rather than fessing up that they erred. There is a separate thread on this site regarding the class action lawsuit against Tesla filed in August 2019 currently on indefinite hold for mediation due to "COVID."

In other words, we don't know how cars manufactured today will hold up tomorrow given Tesla's lack of transparency and changing engineering. It is entirely possible that these newer models will withstand hundreds of thousands of miles of worry-free driving and only slightly longer Supercharging speeds as the batteries age. It is equally possible that as Tesla gathers more data on their newer constructions that they won't repeat their prior clandestine acts. Although with only a 4-year warranty on the 3 and Y, it may be academic.

One final note: Once Tesla has your money, their customer service in many locations is beneath poor. You cannot contact Tesla except via their app. No phone numbers to call. No contact person to email. Service appointments are handled entirely with your smartphone. As stated above, for the most part Teslas do not have chronic problems that require servicing periodically. But if there is an anomaly with your vehicle, good luck in getting things sorted out and solved without a lot of frustration on your end and delays, obfuscation, and silence from Tesla.

Good luck with your decision!

 

[drtimhill]

(2) Would free supercharging make sense? If we used it for say 30k miles, would I be hurting the battery? We could install chargers at home. Articles and posts seem to go both ways, saying the battery would be unaffected, or that I would see degradation.

I would go for a home charger (sounds like it wont stress you financially). First off, there is a huge convenience factor .. the car is always charged and ready to go every morning. In addition in winter, you can warm up the car before you head out without "stealing" energy from the battery to do this. Second, although supercharging wont destroy the car or battery, it does put more of a strain on it and will shorten the lifetime of the battery, though by how much is hotly debated.

You will find the Tesla a far more interesting car to drive than the Prius (which isnt a bad car, just a bit boring).

 

[Physicslawyer]

Based on our driving habits, range would be the major factor influencing this decision. The increase in performance of the MY compared to the Prius is good enough, so I would go with the long range (I'm still debating it though!). Once the 2007 Prius goes, I'm likely going to get a model 3 performance to replace it. We will always have a Prius for the reliability, since I don't want to worry about Tesla having my car and giving me Uber credits. That would create too much stress in my life. I understand Tesla service leaves a bit to be desired and have experienced the "service" that is Tesla

My job does not have charging available. I would install a Chargepoint charger in NY since the local utility is offering a $500 credit, and a Tesla charger on the side of our garage at our other home. My husband isn't the car enthusiast and since I'm a lawyer and have a finance background, he leaves the negotiating/major purchases to me. I dragged him to Tesla to test drive (we literally live 1/4 of a mile from one, practically across the street). We took out the MY and M3. I almost had to force him to drive the MY, he wouldn't drive the M3, this is literally how little he cares about this stuff. I do want to get something that doesn't hurt him getting in and out like the Prime does.

Thank you for the advice. After reading everything I can find, it seems like supercharging the heck out of it because it would be free for a year, isn't worth the 1k savings, based on the potential damage. We don't need to supercharge and I would just do it because it would be included. We don't have chargers installed in either location and have a foot of snow outside, so now isn't ideal. I think I'll wait on this until the weather improves and we can get the charging sorted.

 

[jcanoe]

Based on our driving habits, range would be the major factor influencing this decision. The increase in performance of the MY compared to the Prius is good enough, so I would go with the long range (I'm still debating it though!). Once the 2007 Prius goes, I'm likely going to get a model 3 performance to replace it. We will always have a Prius for the reliability, since I don't want to worry about Tesla having my car and giving me Uber credits. That would create too much stress in my life. I understand Tesla service leaves a bit to be desired and have experienced the "service" that is Tesla

My job does not have charging available. I would install a Chargepoint charger in NY since the local utility is offering a $500 credit, and a Tesla charger on the side of our garage at our other home. My husband isn't the car enthusiast and since I'm a lawyer and have a finance background, he leaves the negotiating/major purchases to me. I dragged him to Tesla to test drive (we literally live 1/4 of a mile from one, practically across the street). We took out the MY and M3. I almost had to force him to drive the MY, he wouldn't drive the M3, this is literally how little he cares about this stuff. I do want to get something that doesn't hurt him getting in and out like the Prime does.

Thank you for the advice. After reading everything I can find, it seems like supercharging the heck out of it because it would be free for a year, isn't worth the 1k savings, based on the potential damage. We don't need to supercharge and I would just do it because it would be included. We don't have chargers installed in either location and have a foot of snow outside, so now isn't ideal. I think I'll wait on this until the weather improves and we can get the charging sorted.

Good luck whatever your decision. Know that the Tesla vehicles all come with a Mobile Connector portable charging cord (most people call this the charger but it really isn't, the charger is inside the Tesla.) With the Mobile Connector and the included 5-15 plug adapter you can charge literally anywhere there is a standard 120V 15 or 20 amp rated grounded outlet. Charging will be slow, about 3 to 4 miles of driving range per hour of charge but it gets it done. The other charging options from Tesla, Chargepoint etc just get it done faster.

You might like the Performance Model Y however this vehicle only comes with the 21" wheels and summer performance tires, not suitable for winter temperatures and conditions. So right away you would be faced with purchasing a set of winter tires, probably a second set of wheels. Also, the Performance Model Y has a lowered suspension (1" lower") and performance brakes.

The Long Range Model Y is quick enough that you can go from 0 to 4 points on your license in just a few seconds. For an additional $2k, only available after purchasing the vehicle, you can add the acceleration boost (AB) option. This software upgrade will shave about a half second off of the already impressive 0 - 60 time of 4.8 seconds. You can only purchase the AB for the Long Range Model Y.

I would not shy away from SuperCharging, even daily use of the SuperCharger network as required. The only negative, that it normally costs about the same as buying gas, has been eliminated by Tesla by including free SuperCharging for the first year of ownership. The battery pack will age over time no matter what you do as far as charging, expect about 4 to 5 % loss of range in the 1st year of ownership and about 1% ever year after that. Still, Tesla owners have racked up impressive mileage numbers on their vehicles and the battery pack holds up well.

 

[Physicslawyer]

Yes, I would definitely give Tesla the 2k for the performance boost as long as it didn't affect range. Someone posted that their range declined though. Hopefully, that wasn't accurate though. The 21" wheels with the thin tires, while they look great, seem like they could be a pain with tire/wheel issues (also from reading posts on the forum).

 

[MY-Y]

... Someone posted that their range declined though. Hopefully, that wasn't accurate though...

I bought my car in May and the AB in October. My lifetime Wh/mi is 243 and my Wh/mi for this fall, surprisingly, is also 243. The AB makes zero impact on range unless you choose to accelerate harder.

It is also noteworthy that the heat pump heating in the fall (many days in the 30s and 40s) doesn't seem to take any more power than the AC in the summer (humid 80s and 90s). Looking at consumption on the colder days, it is clear that it'll take at least 10% more energy on freezing days this winter though. It is also clear that I use more power preheating, but this energy usage doesn't show up in the car's Wh/mi calculation. I'll clear my fall odometer now that winter is starting to see how much it drops.

 

[Ldub22]

Based on your needs, the comfort needed by your husband, the distance to work and the vacation home, and everything else, there is a car that will solve all your needs.
Buy a model S long range, and you will be set.

 

[jcanoe]

Yes, I would definitely give Tesla the 2k for the performance boost as long as it didn't affect range. Someone posted that their range declined though. Hopefully, that wasn't accurate though. The 21" wheels with the thin tires, while they look great, seem like they could be a pain with tire/wheel issues (also from reading posts on the forum).

The 20" Induction style wheels with the Goodyear tires are probably the best Model Y factory tire/wheel offering from Tesla. Although slightly heavier than the 19" wheels the 20" wheels are efficient; the Goodyear Eagle tires are generally considered superior to the Continential ProContact tires that come on the 19" wheels. So if you don't mind the price the 20" wheels would be something to consider. As you stated the 21" Überturbine wheels are going to cost you more; more potential damaged tires/wheels from potholes.

The suggestion for the Long Range Model S is a good option; the Model S is the range king at over 400 miles; air suspension and a comfortable ride. Think large German luxury sedan ride. Seating is lower than in the Model Y but not as low as in the Model 3. Production is currently shut down for several weeks as they reconfigure for an upgraded interior, maybe. I don't believe the free Supercharging currently comes with the purchase of a Model S but worth looking into.

Regarding the AB, it depends how aggressively you accelerate. More here: Acceleration Boost Purchased

 

[MY-Y]

I found the MS felt lower than the M3 and was substantially harder to enter and exit. I suspect it would be quite tricky in icy conditions. The MS screen crowds the driver as well, but is a super nice car other than that.

 

[Uncle Paul]

From what I understand, current Model Y batteries have expected lifes of 500,000 - 800,000 miles. Million Mile batteries are also in the works. Believe your use of the Tesla would work out great for you.

 

[cpa]

My job does not have charging available. I would install a Chargepoint charger in NY since the local utility is offering a $500 credit, and a Tesla charger on the side of our garage at our other home. My husband isn't the car enthusiast and since I'm a lawyer and have a finance background, he leaves the negotiating/major purchases to me. I dragged him to Tesla to test drive (we literally live 1/4 of a mile from one, practically across the street). We took out the MY and M3. I almost had to force him to drive the MY, he wouldn't drive the M3, this is literally how little he cares about this stuff. I do want to get something that doesn't hurt him getting in and out like the Prime does.

When we bought our '14 S and '18 3, the cars came with a J1772 adapter, a 120V/15A adapter, and a 240V/40A adapter. I believe Tesla is not furnishing all of these adapters nowadays.

I would consider purchasing a NEMA 14-50 outlet for at least one of your locations and the Tesla 14-50 adapter that goes with the UMC. The outlets can be purchased with a spring cover to protect from the elements. Prices are much less expensive than the Tesla HPWC, running less than $50. As long as your breaker box has room for 50 amps, you are good to go without additional costs for upgrading your panel. No need to fumble with the J1772 adapter that you would need if you chose Chargepoint. (Clipper Creek also makes fine chargers.)

If you choose to go the 14-50 route, here is a pro tip: Don't tell the electrician that you will be charging your Tesla. There is a Tesla tax out there that electricians add to their invoices. Instead tell them that you need the full 40 amps (so they use the right gauge wire) because your brother-in-law just got released from prison and will be staying in his RV until he lands on his feet, or some other preposterous story.

I don't know if your local utility would permit this credit if you went the 14-50 route or not. Chargepoint ain't cheap, so perhaps your net out-of-pocket won't be much different which way you proceed.

If you have 120V/20A service you could also just buy the 5-20 adapter from Tesla and charge 1/3 faster than 120V/15A. On our Model 3, we get about 6 miles per hour during warmer weather (>40 degrees) or about 60 miles overnight.

 

[MY-Y]

In May, my MY came with the J1772 and the mobile connector with the 120v/15a (NEMA 5-15) adapter. I bought the NEMA 14-50 adapter and Gen 3 HPWC from the online Tesla store. I have a JuiceBox for another EV.

I tried the 5-15 once - emergency use only IMO. 4.7 MPH charging extrapolates to a whopping 60 hour 0 - 100% charge (yes, 2.5 days!). To put it another way, one hour on the highway in the winter at 75 MPH will use at least 110 rated miles. I've measured the charging rate for each of these connections; the time to charge for these 110 miles takes:

HPWC (48A): 2 hours 30 minutes
JuiceBox (40A): 3 hours
14-50 (32A): 3 hours 45 minutes
5-15 (12A): 24 hours

The 5-15 seems like it should charge at 5.5 MPH instead of 4.7, but for me, it doesn't. The power it takes to run the charger and whatever else the car runs when charging impacts the low power connectors more. (The 240 volt connectors scale as expected with the power they provide.)