Surprised there's no CCS support. Thoughts?

[AnxietyRanger]

Those aren’t 62.5’s, they are 100 kW (uncommon in the U.S.) and the Ioniq and the Soul can draw up to around 68-70 kW from them.

For your region, CHAdeMO is likely the crutch for Tesla vehicles in the short term. It will be somewhat a race at the L3 DCFC Level... note that as of now, there are zero L3 DCFC capable vehicles shipping other than Tesla. We don’t know yet if the I-Pace will have L3, and presumably the Audi Q6 e-tron will have it. But shipping volumes of both of those is expected to be low. Maybe less than 25,000 total between the two at the end of 2019, worldwide. What is going to be interesting is Nissan with the new Leaf in Europe. If they insist on CHAdeMO there, then all the L3 EVSE’s will likely be dual standard and Tesla can just revise the CHAdeMO adapter. That leaves vehicles like the upcoming Ioniq revision to possibly being actual L3 CCS usage, but Hyundai just boosted the current revision from about 14,000 a year build plan to 22,000 a year globally. As they increase the battery usage per car, they run into battery sourcing problems. So maybe in Europe, next year, there might be less than 5,000 CCSv2 vehicles that can L3 DCFC. Maybe rising to 35,000 in 2019. That might be 5% of the installed base by then? That affects the build out.

The story changes quite dramatically, though, when we include all vehicles that can CCS charge and all CCS charging power levels. Those volumes and buildouts and number of manufacturers are significantly larger...

There is this myth amongst Tesla owners that the Supercharger level is somehow a bare minimum at usable or useful EV range charging. IMO that is a fairly entitled view to have. In reality much of the world gets along with much slower charging and finds it still tremendously useful even as long-range charging.

The simple reality is: CCS would take me further than the Supercharger network in several directions as well as would dramatically increase my daily commute/intra-day charging options should such charging needs appear for whatever reason.

This is likely to be even more true in the future.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

CCS is a specification. That's like saying you can't use an 7/16" wrench on an 11 mm clamp. Or "DO NOT USE" extension cords for EVSE's even when it's safe, like 8 amps on a 12 ga cord. Most CCS is 25 or 50 kW today. A hotel we stayed at ONLY had 25kW CCS. No J1772, CHAdeMO, Tesla HPWC, 120v outlet, nadda. But it was silly anyhow since a Lambo was ICE'g it. How fortunate for him there wasn't an i3 owner in bad mood that day and a pocket knife.

You know what I mean. Or at least you should.

 

[McRat]

You know what I mean. Or at least you should.

What I do know is if Elon Musk believed in the word "impossible" Tesla Motors would be long gone by now. Impossible seems to mean a 'gauntlet has been thrown' to Musk.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

What I do know is if Elon Musk believed in the word "impossible" Tesla Motors would be long gone by now. Impossible seems to mean a 'gauntlet has been thrown' to Musk.

Could Tesla implement a CCS adapter? Of course. Could they even get away with it? Oh, possibly. Just quit the consortium and start hacking...

But here's my point: Given the nature of that choice makes it probably unappealing to Tesla, it must be considered possible a lack of CCS adapter is due to this stipulation.

Hence we can not extrapolate lack of demand from this lack of adapter. All we can say is there is no adapter, we don't know for sure why not...

 

[stopcrazypp]

Could Tesla implement a CCS adapter? Of course. Could they even get away with it? Oh, possibly. Just quit the consortium and start hacking...

But here's my point: Given the nature of that choice makes it probably unappealing to Tesla, it must be considered possible a lack of CCS adapter is due to this stipulation.

Hence we can not extrapolate lack of demand from this lack of adapter. All we can say is there is no adapter, we don't know for sure why not...

I don't know about the Charin side, but SAE a few years ago seemed quite fine with adapters, even suggesting that Tesla will make one:
SAE J1772 DC (Combo) Connector Adapter for Model S

Maybe it might end up with Europe using a CCS socket (since Tesla uses Type 2 anyways right now) and the US using an adapter. It might be similar to how type 2 prohibits adapters, but J1772 has no such prohibition (Tesla includes a J1772 adapter).

 

[techmaven]

The story changes quite dramatically, though, when we include all vehicles that can CCS charge and all CCS charging power levels. Those volumes and buildouts and number of manufacturers are significantly larger...

There is this myth amongst Tesla owners that the Supercharger level is somehow a bare minimum at usable or useful EV range charging. IMO that is a fairly entitled view to have. In reality much of the world gets along with much slower charging and finds it still tremendously useful even as long-range charging.

The simple reality is: CCS would take me further than the Supercharger network in several directions as well as would dramatically increase my daily commute/intra-day charging options should such charging needs appear for whatever reason.

This is likely to be even more true in the future.

It's not an entitled point of view. If you look at what is necessary to charge 1,000,000 BEVs, the idea of using low power DC charging is absurd. We can only get away with it right now and in the immediate future due to the low number of BEVs and charging points on the road.

For a sustainable and reasonably affordable transition, we have to have the vast majority of energy transfer to be done late a night with wind, hydro, or other low carbon source. And that's nearly a 2:1 match for BEVs and charging points. At a cost of $250 to $2,000 for each L2 AC plug (7-19 kW), that's already $375 million dollars for half the fleet. DCFC starts at about $7,500 installed for 24 kW. Dual standard L2 DC is on the order of $30-40k installed per plug. Very few 24 kW's are still being installed, we are seeing more L2 DC. If we do a 10:1 match of BEVs against L2 DCFC, we are talking about roughly $2.5 to 3 billion dollars just in charging EVSE's. We'd be looking more at 50:1 ratio to be similar to the earlier 2:1 AC charging scenario. Further, L2 DCFC tends to reinforce the usage model where people charge before work and after work. Guess what... that's the worst time for renewable energy. It makes the grid usage worse in peak of the evenings.

No, it isn't about entitlement, but rather, sustainability. Therefore the AC charging infrastructure we are installing should handle 100 kWh packs overnight... and the DCFC infrastructure needs to handle long distance travel... that's L3, not L2. L2 DCFC is unsustainable.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It's not an entitled point of view. If you look at what is necessary to charge 1,000,000 BEVs, the idea of using low power DC charging is absurd. We can only get away with it right now and in the immediate future due to the low number of BEVs and charging points on the road.

For a sustainable and reasonably affordable transition, we have to have the vast majority of energy transfer to be done late a night with wind, hydro, or other low carbon source. And that's nearly a 2:1 match for BEVs and charging points. At a cost of $250 to $2,000 for each L2 AC plug (7-19 kW), that's already $375 million dollars for half the fleet. DCFC starts at about $7,500 installed for 24 kW. Dual standard L2 DC is on the order of $30-40k installed per plug. Very few 24 kW's are still being installed, we are seeing more L2 DC. If we do a 10:1 match of BEVs against L2 DCFC, we are talking about roughly $2.5 to 3 billion dollars just in charging EVSE's. We'd be looking more at 50:1 ratio to be similar to the earlier 2:1 AC charging scenario. Further, L2 DCFC tends to reinforce the usage model where people charge before work and after work. Guess what... that's the worst time for renewable energy. It makes the grid usage worse in peak of the evenings.

No, it isn't about entitlement, but rather, sustainability. Therefore the AC charging infrastructure we are installing should handle 100 kWh packs overnight... and the DCFC infrastructure needs to handle long distance travel... that's L3, not L2. L2 DCFC is unsustainable.

Be that as it may - I really have no opinion on the sustainability of charging levels (and certainly am not against faster charging in any form) - CCS charging at this time is immensely useful in some parts of the world and lack of it is a lack of convenience at best and an adoption obstacle at worst.

It literally means sometimes instead of a Tesla, ICE has to be driven to get to the destination or even slower charging has to be used...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Maybe it might end up with Europe using a CCS socket (since Tesla uses Type 2 anyways right now) and the US using an adapter.

Sure, I could see this happening.

I see Model 3 European version getting CCS natively as possible...

 

[cros13]

Those aren’t 62.5’s, they are 100 kW (uncommon in the U.S.) and the Ioniq and the Soul can draw up to around 68-70 kW from them.

Nope, sold as and rated at up to 500v / up to 120A. The Ioniq is actually limited by the rapid charger still when charging a at 62.5kW. But... efacec put out a recent software update which boosted the allow current on DC to 175A at temperatures below 40C. Because the QC45 is installed usually with an 80 or 100kVa grid connection due to the

On our QC45s here in Ireland there are two separate kW meters on the rapid separately measuring power for the DC and AC sides of the rapid. provided the

For your region, CHAdeMO is likely the crutch for Tesla vehicles in the short term. It will be somewhat a race at the L3 DCFC Level... note that as of now, there are zero L3 DCFC capable vehicles shipping other than Tesla. We don’t know yet if the I-Pace will have L3, and presumably the Audi Q6 e-tron will have it. But shipping volumes of both of those is expected to be low. Maybe less than 25,000 total between the two at the end of 2019, worldwide. What is going to be interesting is Nissan with the new Leaf in Europe. If they insist on CHAdeMO there, then all the L3 EVSE’s will likely be dual standard and Tesla can just revise the CHAdeMO adapter. That leaves vehicles like the upcoming Ioniq revision to possibly being actual L3 CCS usage, but Hyundai just boosted the current revision from about 14,000 a year build plan to 22,000 a year globally. As they increase the battery usage per car, they run into battery sourcing problems. So maybe in Europe, next year, there might be less than 5,000 CCSv2 vehicles that can L3 DCFC. Maybe rising to 35,000 in 2019. That might be 5% of the installed base by then? That affects the build out.

CHAdeMO is effectively dead in europe. The mk2 leaf (and the 38kWh eNV200 van) will probably be the last CHAdeMO vehicle sold here (it will be CHAdeMO with type 2 for three phase AC). Nissan is really the last CCS holdout once Tesla switches (Renault for example has already announced they are moving to CCS from 2019). Our annual allocation of Ioniqs sold out in the first sales month, because of Hyundai wanting to build up inventory for the North American launch shipments of Ioniqs to the EU have been heavily restricted for months.

The I-Pace will probably be using 150kW CCS (despite mentions of 50kW in some reports, I think that's the same issue as Hyundai where they were advertising the rapid charging capability of the car based on what rapid chargers were available in that local market), so will the A6 e-Tron and so will the Mercedes-Benz EQ (at least in 2019). I know I-Pace manufacturing is starting as soon as November and the local dealers had their techs in for training on the I-Pace last week.
Hyundai/Kia has the new Kona and Niro, both of which will use CCS in europe and the bump to 120A cells in the i3 next year may also see a increase in rapid charging power.
If the BMW 3-series EV hits the road next year that will also be CCS, so will the new VW e-Up, e-Golf, e-Crafter, MB A-class, Sprinter and Vito.

The big question determining how many ~100kW cars hit the road in europe next year isn't just cell manufacturing... it's specifically how quickly LG Chem can get their factory in Poland spun up because that's the biggest bottleneck.

Don't get me wrong, the model 3 will probably lead in volume.... but still.

 

[Maaz]

Tesla's network is all you need.

 

[cwerdna]

Why charging stations don't have credit card stations for easy charging is beyond me.

See Horrible experience with Aerovironment EV charging network - Page 4 - My Nissan Leaf Forum.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Tesla's network is all you need.

Not in many parts of the world.

 

[KarenRei]

Tesla's network is all you need.

I'd buy that argument better if they'd stop ignoring my country.

 

[CSFTN]

The model 3 will be my fourth rapid charging equipped EV. I've regularly done trips of 3000-4000km in an i3 with a 22kWh pack (my i3 has ~140,000km on the odometer). Given my geographical location....

Ireland isn't exactly a large Island. You drive in circles, or taking a ferry to England/Wales/Scotland?

 

[cros13]

Ireland isn't exactly a large Island. You drive in circles, or taking a ferry to England/Wales/Scotland?

My longest trip has been to Berlin and back, roadtrips to the Netherlands twice. I also take the ferry to the UK or France a couple of times a year and have a 187km round trip commute to work every day. The mileage adds up and I have a pretty tall stack of RFID cards.

The ferry from Dublin even has on-board charging:

Hopefully we'll see confirmation either way on the CCS support before the first european units arrive.

 

[jbcarioca]

I'd buy that argument better if they'd stop ignoring my country.

Poor baby! We know the pain, but you’ll have a solution sometime.

Tesla's network is all you need.

Tesla's network is all you need.

Living in Torrance you can say that.

...

I see Model 3 European version getting CCS natively as possible...

Of course that will happen, and an adapter for other non-CCS areas will be coming also, for S3X. I suspect it will be another 6-9 months but it will happen. Tesla is a member of CharIN for good reason, and the communication standard is already in S&X for good reasons too.

 

[EchoDelta]

The ferry from Dublin even has on-board charging:

It is convenient if caught in a pinch / emergency, but it's also a very dirty energy source -especially compared to the power mix in netherlands! (At least until the fabled electric ferrys make that route)

Re .ccs ..Personally I like options.. and I believe the 'supply' side is going to be the limiter until/if the demand ever becomes significant. Hard to predict which curves will overtake which ones without a more thought-out analysis. CHAdeMO adapters took some time to appear too, and against most predictions.

In the meantime, there are people - not in the vast majority- that because of driving pattern (live in odd locations & long routes inconveniently away from supercharger 'channels' ), parking pattern (higher urban density, street parking), etc would rather load up on 100mile-ish while doing a quick supermarket run or having a quick coffee a few times a week through a CCS charger, than reroute through a supercharger . I know some folks that are very happy with their (expensive, bulky, inelegant, but *useful*) Chademo adapter because of this; and I can only imagine CCS overtaking it over time. I wouldn't dismiss their experience even if not the majority or a 'market-defining' amount. In US and Europe it's different of course. Yeah it's a lesser experience than a supercharger but it you are there at the same time and place...

Especially w onboard chargers trending to 48A or less, the DC options become more relevant and will get more demand pressure vis a vis the destination charging. Originally high current L2 was the original expectation (72A etc). But "Destination" now kind of implies sleepover, or a long day at the park, not just a long dinner or a movie, in order to get a relevant bump in miles.

 

[KarenRei]

Poor baby! We know the pain, but you’ll have a solution sometime.

Don't you have anything better to do than name calling?

 

[jbcarioca]

Don't you have anything better to do than name calling?

Sorry, that was a joke, but obviously a bad one. I admire your determination and apologize for my ill-executed attempt at humour.

 

[bro1999]

I agree, no point in making a CCS adapter when the Supercharger network exists. Last thing I need is Teslas clogging up the still fragile CCS network. Plus with a CHAdeMO adapter, there's probably like 5% of CCS stations that DON'T also have a CHAdeMO plug.

Unless EVSE manufacturers start dropping CHAdeMO entirely, the CHAdeMO adapter should be all that a Tesla owner would need.