Survey: Is Full Self-Driving Capability worth the cost?

[wooter]

I hear and respect your opinion. However, the poll results are somewhat telling, especially considering this is a pro-tesla website/forum. Full of tesla lovers. But even among that crowd, the opinions on FSD fall short...

I don't care for the poll results, nor do I have to. At least not as long as I'm not paying for anyone else's FSD, and ROI-wise and compared to competitors I still feel like I'm doing a good deal.

Sure, a better deal would have been no FSD, but driving myself is so 2010's. After 100K miles of which mostly on AP, you can't convince me anymore that going back to cruise control and no auto lane keeping is a better deal. Regretfully, I still drove ICE rentals a few times a year pre-Covid, and expect to do so again after Covid, and the competition at the moment all suck and are not comparable to that Tesla is offering.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure that if you would poll the general population about traffic aware cruise control and lane keeping, most of them would also choose against because the current implementations suck, or are not compatible with their more aggressive driving style. Does that mean they are right? Of course not.

 

[2101Guy]

I wonder if any of the dissatisfied FSD owners have tried driving (or have replaced their cars with) a non-FSD car. I imagine it's a love/hate (or maybe a hate/love) relationship. Maybe as a follow up, this group might change their opinions...who knows?

The results of this (much maligned survey) lead to a very straight forward conclusion, that being, as of the current iteration, feelings about FSD seems to be split right down the middle (like everything else these days), with the cost being a large factor.
If you're on the fence, and an extra $10,000 is a stretch, avoid it.
On the other hand, if you can justify the expense, rationalizing that you might recoup some of the extra cost on resale, or maybe in your mind you can amortize the cost over a 7-12 year ownership, then go for it,

The prospective beta release looks like it might win over some fans...IMHO

Only speaking for myself, as it relates to first question, yes. Had EAP then FSD on my former S. Purchased the wifes Y and opted for no FSD. Ordered a new S and no FSD/no intentions on getting FSD. Realizing that money/value mean different things to different people, but to me/based on my experience:
EAP-Best overall value at $3k-$4k when it was offered at that price.
FSD-Worst value in its current iteration at $10k
AP-Best overall value/best bang for the buck in real world functionality for what you get.

 

[2101Guy]

I don't care for the poll results, nor do I have to. At least not as long as I'm not paying for anyone else's FSD, and ROI-wise and compared to competitors I still feel like I'm doing a good deal.

Sure, a better deal would have been no FSD, but driving myself is so 2010's. After 100K miles of which mostly on AP, you can't convince me anymore that going back to cruise control and no auto lane keeping is a better deal. Regretfully, I still drove ICE rentals a few times a year pre-Covid, and expect to do so again after Covid, and the competition at the moment all suck and are not comparable to that Tesla is offering.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure that if you would poll the general population about traffic aware cruise control and lane keeping, most of them would also choose against because the current implementations suck, or are not compatible with their more aggressive driving style. Does that mean they are right? Of course not.

Hey, I totally understand. Im not trying to convince anyone of anything. Also, you somewhat made my point, as cruise control and auto lane keeping appear to be high on your list of functions. And those functions..are free with AP.

As far as $10k FSD, I had much of the additional features disabled or changed to let me make the action. (the exact opposite of what elon wants/preaches). Ex: Auto Lane change on the highway. Would occur too often for me. Just because the car in front slowed down doesnt automatically mean I want to move over to the left passing lane, then back again, repeat over and over along a trip. Also, the way that it would take some exit ramps had me taking over. All too often it would enter the ramp at full highway speed, and then have a VERY harsh brake as it entered the curved part of the ramp. Wasnt smooth. Also, I tend to not ride side by side with 18 wheelers. Just a personal thing. So I'd find myself intervening to press the gas to go past a 18wheeler traveling at same set speed in adjacent lane as the FSD was set at. So at that point, the NOA feature wasnt being fully utilized. And for me, I typically get in the middle lane of the highway, set the speed and just let it do its thing. (basic AP function meets this need flawlessly).

And for city driving? Having to intervene at every stop light/intersection. Being on a two lane road, there is a cyclist on the far right of the lane. If on FSD, the car takes the cautious approach, slows, stays behind the cyclist. I then have to intervene, turn off FSD, slightly cross the double yellow when its safe, pass, then get back in the lane in front of the cyclist. And I stopped using Smart Summon after the third time it went up onto a curb.

For others who love FSD? Great. But after my year with it? To me..wasnt worth anywhere near $10k.

 

[wooter]

Maybe it sounds like you expect a little bit more magic. Me, personally, I'm happy with it being a very good Driver's Assistant. Sure, it won't overtake cyclists on city streets, but I don't expect it to at the moment.

And yes, most features are now available in EAP, but after spending the whatever price FSD was back in 2017 or 2019 I didn't look back at what functionality got shuffled in which package.

 

[2101Guy]

Maybe it sounds like you expect a little bit more magic. Me, personally, I'm happy with it being a very good Driver's Assistant. Sure, it won't overtake cyclists on city streets, but I don't expect it to at the moment.

And yes, most features are now available in EAP, but after spending the whatever price FSD was back in 2017 or 2019 I didn't look back at what functionality got shuffled in which package.

Agreed. Admittedly I was a bit jaded by the promises of the CEO of Telsa and his tweets. I was expecting my experience with FSD to match what he would clearly state. (ie, "NYC to LA by end of 2019 with zero human intervention" and the like..).

I was..wrong.

 

[wooter]

Agreed. Admittedly I was a bit jaded by the promises of the CEO of Telsa and his tweets. I was expecting my experience with FSD to match what he would clearly state. (ie, "NYC to LA by end of 2019 with zero human intervention" and the like..).

I was..wrong.

I never bought FSD based on promises, but what it could do at that moment. When I ordered my car early 2017, AP2 was limited to about 50kph on city streets an non-highways, and even that didn't hold me back. Now, I would have loved to see the NYC to LA thing happening in 2019 but it didn't and my car still can do more than most competing models.

I'm very interested in what is already possible with FSD Beta, but I'm not expecting it anytime soon in Europe - where legislators are very risk adverse, even blocking Audi's promised Level 3 support since 2017. I expect things to only get heating up in Europe when competitors can come out with actually competing ADAS.

 

[2101Guy]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/07/26/elon-musk-tesla-full-self-driving/

 

[Tam]

I'm glad your guesses don't have any legal basis with respect to the very clearly published caveats to FSD full functionality.

My guess on Tesla presenting FSD as a speculating financial instrument is now hinted by Elon Musk's yesterday briefing (thanks to @2101Guy referenced article above):

"We need to make Full Self-Driving work in order for it to be a compelling value proposition. Otherwise, people are betting on the future."

Note the word that he chose "betting". It's not a regular consumer purchase with consumer protection. It's a bet until its value will be proven in the future.

 

[rxlawdude]

My guess on Tesla presenting FSD as a speculating financial instrument is now hinted by Elon Musk's yesterday briefing (thanks to @2101Guy referenced article above):

"We need to make Full Self-Driving work in order for it to be a compelling value proposition. Otherwise, people are betting on the future."

Note the word that he chose "betting". It's not a regular consumer purchase with consumer protection. It's a bet until its value will be proven in the future.

You read it the way you want.

 

[thefrog1394]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/07/26/elon-musk-tesla-full-self-driving/

Everyone acts so shocked by this statement. I don't really get why. I mean I guess the fact that Elon came out and said it is somewhat surprising, but he's 100% right. FSD at current prices is more about speculating on future improvement than buying the current feature-set. Reading through this thread, it seems like the $3-5k price range for EAP is about what people feel FSD (which is basically EAP + stop lights) is worth today. So that extra $5k is about betting on the future. I suspect the subscription will mostly be used by folks as a way to trial new FSD builds as they are released to see any improvements, test the latest technology, etc.

It also wouldn't entirely surprise me if Tesla is somewhat "anti-selling" FSD purchases because they aren't sure what additional hardware may be required to get to full L5 autonomy. It seems unclear whether existing customers expect that, but based on historical statements by Elon, its clear that they (at least originally) planned to have FSD evolve into that with HW2.5 and then HW3.

 

[Tam]

...its clear that they (at least originally) planned to have FSD evolve into that with HW2.5 and then HW3...

Come on! What about HW2.0?

 

[Tesomega]

Come on! What about HW2.0?

I am with you, It shows how long this loosing bet is going on with Tesla !.

 

[Rossacorsaf1]

The beauty now is that you can subscribe to fsd for 200/month. Although I’m sure that will increase as well. I currently have a plaid on order with scheduled delivery in September. This would be my first ev so i am super excited. I originally had a p100d ordered in 2018 but that fell through (don’t even get me started). Has the fsd tech changed dramatically for the better since that time?

I optioned my car with fsd for 10k, but I leaning towards removing it now that I have the option to try it out whenever I want. It seems like the tech still has a long way to go based on reviews, videos, etc. All of my current cars except for one have the autopilot tech and while they are decent, I never use it.

This 10k + 19inch wheels is a total of 14.5k savings. I think I’ll use that to get a real set of wheels and ppf.

 

[haroldo]

It seems like the tech still has a long way to go based on reviews, videos, etc

I hate to sound like an elitist, but it really all depends upon how much $10,000 means to the purchaser.
If it’s a big bite, then avoid it, it’s not worth it.
If it’s not a problem to spend an extra 10,000 to try out something that’s evolving, and has a lot of neat features, then go for it.
Over the lifespan of the car, (and realizing that you’ll get some of it back on resale, or trade in value), it’s really not a major expenditure, for a $60-$80,000 car (especially considering the S went up by $10,000 in a month).

No one can answer the question for you, it’s just a question of how you value the extra cost.

 

[OnTheSnap]

I’m hoping when full FSD is out in Beta they open up the purchase of EAP for $5K or less. I don’t want FSD until it’s baked. But not happy with basic autopilot, since basic stuff like changing lanes while engaged is disabled. Sheesh.

$10K for it to change lanes when I hit a signal I stupid. If I had just that feature I would not miss the FSD I had on my previous M3P one bit

 

[2101Guy]

The beauty now is that you can subscribe to fsd for 200/month. Although I’m sure that will increase as well. I currently have a plaid on order with scheduled delivery in September. This would be my first ev so i am super excited. I originally had a p100d ordered in 2018 but that fell through (don’t even get me started). Has the fsd tech changed dramatically for the better since that time?

I optioned my car with fsd for 10k, but I leaning towards removing it now that I have the option to try it out whenever I want. It seems like the tech still has a long way to go based on reviews, videos, etc. All of my current cars except for one have the autopilot tech and while they are decent, I never use it.

This 10k + 19inch wheels is a total of 14.5k savings. I think I’ll use that to get a real set of wheels and ppf.

Has it improved? Yes. Does Tesla still remind you (numerous times) that you, the driver, are 100% responsible at all times for the cars operation (when on or off of FSD)? Yes. Does Does Tesla still remind you numerous times to always, always pay full attention and keep your hands on the wheel at all times? Yes.

Is the current FSD (even on whatever the latest Beta is) still Level 2, same as Ford/Cadillac etc?

Yes.

So you..decide.

 

[rxlawdude]

Is the current FSD (even on whatever the latest Beta is) still Level 2, same as Ford/Cadillac etc?

Yes.

Nope. Ford/Cadillac's systems are geofenced pretty tightly. Tesla's is not.

 

[2101Guy]

Nope. Ford/Cadillac's systems are geofenced pretty tightly. Tesla's is not.

Agreed.

But still both are Level 2 semi-autonomous driving. Nowhere near "FULL SELF Driving".

Toyota and Lexus Join Tesla and GM in Level 2 Hands-Free Driving Fray

The new assist suite heads to U.S.-market Lexus LS sedans this fall.

www.motortrend.com