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Suspension Problem on Model S

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Edit: as pointed out by John Snow this TSLA related to the lower control am joints (not the upper ones).

Thanks. For those who don't want to take the time to read it this is a TSB (techinical service bulletin) posted by Tesla in March 2015. Here are the important parts:

Bulletin Classification:
This campaign bulletin addresses a known non-safety-related condition and provides
recommended technical diagnosis and repair procedures. Apply this procedure to all vehicles in the affected VIN range
listed. These instructions assume knowledge of motor vehicle and high voltage electrical component repairs, and should
only be executed by trained professionals. Tesla Motors assumes no liability for injury or property damage due to a failure
to properly follow these instructions or repairs attempted by unqualified individuals.

Condition
The front lower control arm ball joints might develop greater free play than is expected. This can result in a clicking or
clunking sound from the front suspension when driving over large bumps. If left uncorrected, the ball joints could be
subject to accelerated wear. Over time, the clicking or clunking noises will become louder as the ball joint wear increases,
leading to required premature replacement of components.

Correction
Install 4 wedge-lock washers on the lower control arm ball joints. Check the front lower control arm ball joints and front
knuckles for abnormal wear, and replace if necessary.

Affected Model S vehicles built before approximately November 10, 2013.
 
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Hi gpcordaro,

I got your problem about 2 weeks ago. My car is a RHD. Sound was heard about 2 weeks after taking delivery when steering left while backing up and steering right when moving forward after finishing the back-up. Called the technical service immediately and was told that the car was safe to drive. Made an appointment to fix the problem in July but the problem happened two months earlier! When the problem happened, the dust cover of the left front wheel was completely taken off and the car could hardly drive.

Tesla HK claimed that it was not due to its manufacturing defect but it was my fault. I could not believe it as my car was just 2.5 months after delivery and was driven only a bit over 2K km.

Until now, Tesla HK has still not come back to me as to which party is at fault. With the news broken out, I am sure that it was not me who caused the problem.
 
Here is what I see:

The articles online seem to be circular. They basically all come back to this thread and what's been said here.

I would not call the OP a troll. He shows no signs of trying to deliberately stir up trouble. I do think it is possible he may be exaggerating the case a bit. I do believe his car did have the failure he said it did.

The car has lived its life in a region with a lot of salt on the roads in the winter that will create more corrosion of steel parts than cars in other regions which don't salt the roads.

The OP said he had the car in for service just before it happened and they were looking at some issues with alignment. I think the service center probably should have taken a look at the ball joints if the car wasn't holding alignment, but that's the only clear fault of Tesla's I see.

I doubt it is a widespread problem with the Tesla fleet. If the NHTSA is actually doing an investigation, then we will hear more about it. I'm not sure there really is an investigation. The news stories appear to be built on speculation.
 
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Thanks. For those who don't want to take the time to read it this is a TSB (techinical service bulletin) posted by Tesla in March 2015. Here are the important parts:

Bulletin Classification:
This campaign bulletin addresses a known non-safety-related condition and provides
recommended technical diagnosis and repair procedures. Apply this procedure to all vehicles in the affected VIN range
listed. These instructions assume knowledge of motor vehicle and high voltage electrical component repairs, and should
only be executed by trained professionals. Tesla Motors assumes no liability for injury or property damage due to a failure
to properly follow these instructions or repairs attempted by unqualified individuals.

Condition
The front lower control arm ball joints might develop greater free play than is expected. This can result in a clicking or
clunking sound from the front suspension when driving over large bumps. If left uncorrected, the ball joints could be
subject to accelerated wear. Over time, the clicking or clunking noises will become louder as the ball joint wear increases,
leading to required premature replacement of components.

Correction
Install 4 wedge-lock washers on the lower control arm ball joints. Check the front lower control arm ball joints and front
knuckles for abnormal wear, and replace if necessary.

Affected Model S vehicles built before approximately November 10, 2013.

To add, the upper control arm ball joint is what has apparently failed in OPs vehicle.
 
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The last two Toyotas I sold with 90K + miles on them still had original balls joints in them and were fine. I've never seen a ball joint go bad at 50K, or 70K.

I've seen them go bad at 10k. The Chevy Cobalt - yes, that vehicle again - was well known for blowing out its bushings, over and over and over again with very low mileage. The only way to solve the issue long term was a whole new control arm assembly. The reason that worked was because the bushings were of a different material that stood up better to the design of the car.

And yes, when a bushing wears out the driver should be able to hear and/or feel a difference in the car. Admittedly, some people aren't as observant as others, and/or not as car savvy, and/or as proactive when something seems amiss.
 
Yeah, that's your interpretation of what the NDA was designed to do.

There have been reports of safety related parts that have gone bad after 50,000 miles:

Windshield wiper motor: $500
MCU (17" touchscreen): $4,000

So this case is not unique.

This case of NDA is very simple:

The problem happened after the warranty ran out.

Tesla would fix it if you pay for it.

You then explained that this problem is a safety related issue so the fix needs to be free even when it's out of the warranty period.

Tesla disputed the rationale for post-warranty free repair and counter-offered an NDA.

As a safety advocate, you informed the community of your suspension problem well before an NDA was offered.

You now got an NDA offer and whether you decide to take it or not, your message is heard loud and clear because NHTSA is investigating either with your help or not.

It's a personal decision to value a repair cost reduction or a $3,100 free repair and sign an NDA rather than to value the freedom of speech in this forum and reject an NDA.
 
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In all probability there isn't a fleet-wide issue. Evidence would have been immediately available if that were the case.

But it can't be ruled out that a batch of boots were of sub-par quality, or some such, and that cars produced between date X and date Y need an inspection to rule out defective boots.

I am glad the NHTSA is conducting an investigation so that we can cut through the BS. Posting pictures of crashed cars with wheels broken off is lunacy - in a collision, you want the wheels and crumple zones to absorb as much of the energy as possible, leaving the passenger compartment intact.

And if this investigation causes TSLA to drop below 220, it's not unlikely that I will increase my position in TSLA.
 
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You then explained that this problem is a safety related issue so the fix needs to be free even when it's out of the warranty period.

Why does anyone expect a manufacturer to fix anything for free once a car out of the warranty. I have a cracked headlight lens, probably from some road debris--can I have Tesla fix that for free too, since headlights are obviously a safety issue.
 
And here is Tesla's answer:

A Grain of Salt
A Grain of Salt
The Tesla Team June 9, 2016
A few things need to be cleared up about the supposed safety of Model S suspensions:

First, there is no safety defect with the suspensions in either the Model S or Model X. Since we own all of our service centers, we are aware of every incident that happens with our customer cars and we are aware of every part that gets replaced. Whenever there is even a potential issue with one of those parts, we investigate fully. This, combined with extensive durability testing, gives us high confidence in our suspensions. With respect to the car that is discussed in the blog post that led to yesterday’s news (more on the blog post below), the suspension ball joint experienced very abnormal rust. We haven’t seen this on any other car, suggesting a very unusual use case. The car had over 70,000 miles on it and its owner lives down such a long dirt road that it required two tow trucks to retrieve the car. (One to get the car to the highway and one to get it from the highway to the service center.) When we got the car, it was caked in dirt.

Second, NHTSA has not opened any investigation nor has it even started a “preliminary evaluation,” which is the lowest form of formal investigatory work that it does. On April 20th, as part of what it has told us it considers “routine screening,” NHTSA informally asked us to provide information about our suspensions. On April 30th, we provided all relevant information to NHTSA. NHTSA has since told us that we have cooperated fully and that no further information is needed. Neither before nor after this information was provided has NHTSA identified any safety issue with Tesla’s suspensions. This can be confirmed with NHTSA.

Third, Tesla has never and would never ask a customer to sign a document to prevent them from talking to NHTSA or any other government agency. That is preposterous.

When our customers tell us something went wrong with their car, we often cover it even if we find that the problem was not caused by the car and that we therefore have no obligations under the warranty. In these situations, we discount or conduct the repair for free, because we believe in putting our customers’ happiness ahead of our own bottom line. When this happens, we sometimes ask our customers to sign a “Goodwill Agreement.” The basic point is to ensure that Tesla doesn’t do a good deed, only to have that used against us in court for further gain. These situations are very rare, but have sometimes occurred in the past. We will take a look at this situation and will work with NHTSA to see if we can handle it differently, but one thing is clear: this agreement never even comes close to mentioning NHTSA or the government and it has nothing to do with trying to stop someone from communicating with NHTSA or the government about our cars. We have absolutely no desire to do something like that. It is deeply ironic that the only customer who apparently believes that this document prevents him from talking to NHTSA is also the same one who talked to NHTSA. If our agreement was meant to prevent that, it obviously wasn’t very good.

Fourth, Tesla’s own actions demonstrate just how rigorous we are about bringing issues to NHTSA’s attention. Not only do we regularly meet with NHTSA, we have also shown that we won’t hesitate to conduct proactive and voluntary recalls even when there is only a slight risk of a safety issue. Most recently, Tesla recalled third row seats in the Model X even though not a single problem had been reported by any customer. Before that, Tesla recalled a front seat belt pretensioner, even though not a single injury had occurred. In both of these situations and others before them, Tesla took these actions before anyone reported a concern to NHTSA. We did them on our own, because it was the right thing to do.

There is no car company in the world that cares more about safety than Tesla and our track record reflects that. The Model S is 5-star safety rated in every category and sub-category and Model X is expected to receive the same rating as soon as the government finishes testing. Recently, a Model S was in a very high speed accident in Germany that caused it to fly 82 feet through the air, an event that would likely be fatal in vehicles not designed to the level of safety of a Tesla. All five occupants were able to exit the vehicle under their own power and had no life-threatening injuries.

Finally, it is worth noting that the blogger who fabricated this issue, which then caused negative and incorrect news to be written about Tesla by reputable institutions, is Edward Niedermayer. This is the same gentle soul who previously wrote a blog titled “Tesla Death Watch,” which starting on May 19, 2008 was counting the days until Tesla’s death. It has now been 2,944 days. We just checked our pulse and, much to his chagrin, appear to be alive. It is probably wise to take Mr. Niedermayer’s words with at least a small grain of salt.

We don’t know if Mr. Niedermayer’s motivation is simply to set a world record for axe-grinding or whether he or his associates have something financial to gain by negatively affecting Tesla’s stock price, but it is important to highlight that there are several billion dollars in short sale bets against Tesla. This means that there is a strong financial incentive to greatly amplify minor issues and to create false issues from whole cloth.

That said, sometimes Tesla does make genuine mistakes. We are not and have never claimed to be perfect. However, we strongly believe in trying to do the right thing and, when we fall short, taking immediate corrective action.
 
WOW. That response is incredible. No other car company would bring the truth bombs with that kind of snark to it. I read that and was like
aMgG2jh.gif
 

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To be fair to the OP I really do think he was someone who originally started out trying to do the right thing.

At some point in our lives we've all been swindled by someone trying to take advantage of us, and whatever our situation might be. Sometimes our emotions run unchecked, and we go down the rabbit hole. If it wasn't for that blogger the OP would been in a better position because he would have been grounded in factual information from actual owners. If you look at the thread its full of non-owners projecting their opinions without a lot substance from actual owner experiences. I don't mind non-owners commenting and I do appreciate their insight, but there definitely was a signal to noise problem.

I am glad Tesla blogged about the issue to bring some ground truth to it. It can also allow for a more productive discussion of the issue. Where we can talk about the suspension issue less from a conspiracy perceptive and more from a engineering perspective. Where we look at what is failing, why and whether it's unusual. It's mechanical in nature so of course it's going to have it's failure methods. The key is to figure out if there is a better way, and knowing what to be on the look out for.
 
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This from the lame-stream media at Ap:

US government investigating Tesla suspension issues

NHTSA says it's also concerned that Tesla has asked owners to sign nondisclosure agreements about safety issues. The agency says such agreements could prevent owners from reporting problems to the government.
The Dailykanban article actually had a link to the NDA agreement. It was just a generic goodwill NDA that Tesla has people sign when they fix things out of warranty out of goodwill (which Tesla has explained is to protect themselves against people who later use that goodwill fix against them in court; apparently there have people that have done that, although rare). It says nothing about safety issues nor about reporting problems to the government.
http://cdn.dailykanban.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/TeslaGoodwill.webp

If the OP's warranty was still in effect, Tesla would have fixed under warranty and no NDA would have been signed.
 
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This is the same gentle soul who previously wrote a blog titled “Tesla Death Watch,” which starting on May 19, 2008 was counting the days until Tesla’s death. It has now been 2,944 days. We just checked our pulse and, much to his chagrin, appear to be alive. It is probably wise to take Mr. Niedermayer’s words with at least a small grain of salt.

Possibly my favorite part of the Tesla response :)

underconstruction2.gif
 
...I would certainly like to know if it is true that OP lives at the end of a long dirt road down which he was driving his Tesla...

Even if the car was under the warranty (it is not due to way over 50,000 miles), the exclusions are:

off-road,

uneven, rough damaged or hazardous surfaces including but not limited to:
curbs, potholes, unfinished roads, debris, or other obstacles..."




4W0W5ZF.jpg
 
I don't like Non-Disclosure Agreement either but it's been a common legal practice until Tesla uses it then why suddenly, all hell breaks loose and you have to investigate Tesla for the crime of practicing NDA?

The problem here is that Tesla tries to cover up the defects (some potentially big safety issues) through their NDAs. Since Tesla doesn't issue recalls, and uses its own hush-hush TSBs to repair defects, there is no way for consumers and safety agencies to even form a correct opinion about the safety and reliability of its cars. I have long believed that one major reason Tesla dislikes the independent dealer networks, is to hide defects from public.

Tesla Suspension Breakage: It's Not The Crime, It's The Coverup - DailyKanban
If you read the original dailykanban.com article, you will see that it has been a common practice for Tesla. Many Model X owners who got their initial Model X replaced due to quality issues signed such agreements to keep the issues secret. It doesn't seem legal for Tesla to suppress the negative facts of its cars like this, while bragging about the positives. Tesla's CEO openly bragged about its proactive service (Formula 1 fast too!), but in OP's case, service failed to detect an imminent life threatening problem.

Regardless of this issue, it will be good if NHTSA can force Tesla to abandon the use of NDAs. Owners should be free to disclose their issues to anyone, including internet forums and youtube.
 
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I think Tesla should in some circumstances offer goodwill repairs for out-of-warranty faults. In those circumstances, it's prudent to ensure you won't be sued. If Tesla has to choose between doing goodwill repairs and dropping the agreement, they should stop doing goodwill repairs.

Of course, they should ensure the language of the agreement doesn't imply that they are trying to cover up safety-related faults.
 
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