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Sway Bars or Coilover (or?)

Motion122

Member
Jan 14, 2020
151
67
Santa Barbara & Los Angeles
So I have a 2019 Model 3 Performance, and...

I plan on keeping the 20" factory rims
I want similar ride height to what I have now (I can't really go lower in my driveway)
I want a stiffer, more go-cart like ride. Not crazy, but a bit better than the ride now...

What is my best bang for buck? Sway bars? Better suspension? I am in So CA and want it installed if that matters.

Go?!

Coilovers first and sway bars only if you are trying fine tune it for over/understeer. Most coilovers have higher than OE spring rates so you will end up stiffer anyway.





Hands down get the coilovers. Don't even think about the sway bars. If you poll the Forum I think you'd get MPP 3 or 4 to 1

Only because the lack of options available.
 
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dfwatt

Best Car Ever
Sep 24, 2018
3,242
5,415
FL
Coilovers first and sway bars only if you are trying fine tune it for over/understeer. Most coilovers have higher than OE spring rates so you will end up stiffer anyway.
Only because the lack of options available.

Sorry. That's counterfactual. There are at least 6 coilover kits. The reason that MPP gets the lion share of the support on this forum is not because of a lack of options it's for other reasons.
 
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Vines

Active Member
Jul 20, 2018
2,081
2,517
Silicon Valley, CA
I have to agree that the ride on my MPP Sports is amazing and I have driven on the track some before. Its not a "Track" kit but handles the track very well and is double adjustable so you have a degree more control, if you feel you need it.
They are perfect for a dual purpose street/track fun car. I don't feel I need more sway bar than the stock performance one, but I don't like my rear end too stiff.
 
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dfwatt

Best Car Ever
Sep 24, 2018
3,242
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Okay, if you would like to call xzy, bc or yellow really coilovers.
Once again you are missing the point. The reason MPP gets the lion share of attention and purchasing on this forum doesn't have to do with the "lack of options" as you mistakenly argue, it has to do with the excellence of both their kits and their service.
 

Uncle Paul

Well-Known Member
Nov 1, 2013
6,299
7,598
Canyon Lake,CA
You can get part way to your desire of better handling feel by simply increasing your tire pressures a bit.

Amazing how much the feel changes by raising or lowering tire pressures.
 

Motion122

Member
Jan 14, 2020
151
67
Santa Barbara & Los Angeles
Once again you are missing the point. The reason MPP gets the lion share of attention and purchasing on this forum doesn't have to do with the "lack of options" as you mistakenly argue, it has to do with the excellence of both their kits and their service.

Customer service is excellent. I agree.

KW based V-series dampers, leave much to be desired.
 

Sukhshanti

Member
Apr 18, 2020
80
137
Sacramento, CA
3 mods! do it now! front/rear sways, 265 or 275 width tires on wider forged (or flow forged for cheapskates like me) lightweight 18" or 19" wheels and coil overs. Literally transformed my M3P from a boat into a go kart. I would start with sways, they are the most cost effective mod out of the 3.
 
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Clivew

Member
Nov 19, 2019
225
361
Bedford, UK
KW based V-series dampers, leave much to be desired.

I’ve been fitting and setting-up KW V3 and KW Competition suspension on road/track/race cars for 15 years (Dealing with Michael Grassl @ KW headquarters before he went to work for Manthey Racing), please tell us in technical and chassis dynamics terms, why you think they “leave much to be desired”?
 

MasterC17

Active Member
Dec 3, 2015
1,300
2,049
USA
you mean In your humble opinion

I have to agree with this. I originally purchased MCS 1WNR Coilovers which are highly regarded in the enthusiastic community as being one of the fastest dampers money can buy - despite the cost being nearly double the MPP Sports. Surprisingly, when I put a set of MPP Comforts on my wife's Model 3 I found that corner speeds were basically the same on the same tires. After chatting with Sasha, it seems the MCS would offer improvements over the MPP components on a car running slicks and aero. However, there are almost none of us running slicks and aero on a Model 3. Additionally, the MCS have a significant amount of NVH and require much more maintenance and setup, not to mention being harsh on the street. In effect, I can't imagine any setup better than MPP's options, unless of course you were building a dedicated race car, which, again, I've seen only a single individual do thus far.

I also ran several different dampers on the E46 platform - Moton, AST, Intrax. The KW V2's rode much better than any of the others on the street, and it was difficult to find much of a difference on the track.

I would also like to know what they leave to be desired for your, or really anyone else's application.
 

Mash

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Nov 10, 2019
994
777
Prague
I have to agree with this. I originally purchased MCS 1WNR Coilovers which are highly regarded in the enthusiastic community as being one of the fastest dampers money can buy - despite the cost being nearly double the MPP Sports. Surprisingly, when I put a set of MPP Comforts on my wife's Model 3 I found that corner speeds were basically the same on the same tires. After chatting with Sasha, it seems the MCS would offer improvements over the MPP components on a car running slicks and aero. However, there are almost none of us running slicks and aero on a Model 3. Additionally, the MCS have a significant amount of NVH and require much more maintenance and setup, not to mention being harsh on the street. In effect, I can't imagine any setup better than MPP's options, unless of course you were building a dedicated race car, which, again, I've seen only a single individual do thus far.

I also ran several different dampers on the E46 platform - Moton, AST, Intrax. The KW V2's rode much better than any of the others on the street, and it was difficult to find much of a difference on the track.

I would also like to know what they leave to be desired for your, or really anyone else's application.
With sticky tires harder springs and matching valves would benefit. Let's see if Ohlins TTX 4way will improve it.
 

Clivew

Member
Nov 19, 2019
225
361
Bedford, UK
Let's see if Ohlins TTX 4way will improve it.

Unless you’re running pots on all the struts, can capture the data at a very high sample rate, and have a suitable onboard ECU, or are extremely experienced at setting up fast bump/rebound (I’ve yet to meet an AM driver whom fully understands setting up 2 way dampers for optimum chassis control/balance) then 4 way dampers will gain you nothing.

Very expensive high quality dampers will give diminishing returns unless fully utilised by a set-up specific to the car and driver preference.
 

dfwatt

Best Car Ever
Sep 24, 2018
3,242
5,415
FL
Customer service is excellent. I agree.

KW based V-series dampers, leave much to be desired.
You have had three people on The Forum challenge your assertion and ask you for data about why you believe that KW dampers open quotes leave much to be desired close quotes. We have to assume that since you have elected not to respond to those three inquiries and have not provided any specifics that you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
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Mash

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Nov 10, 2019
994
777
Prague
Unless you’re running pots on all the struts, can capture the data at a very high sample rate, and have a suitable onboard ECU, or are extremely experienced at setting up fast bump/rebound (I’ve yet to meet an AM driver whom fully understands setting up 2 way dampers for optimum chassis control/balance) then 4 way dampers will gain you nothing.

Very expensive high quality dampers will give diminishing returns unless fully utilised by a set-up specific to the car and driver preference.
On TTX the 4way is just a 10% cost of changing valves from 2 way. We will be tuning it on the track with Ohlins engineer and there is nothing difficult nowadays about high speed suspension logs.

The main advantage is a wide range of adjustment of TTX without need for revalving as well as high reliability for a track suspension. I hope to find a middle ground with spring rates for dual use.

It's not a setup that is ever going to be recommended as a reasonable beyond track use. And I'm certainly not qualified to have any actual need in it. I'm just interested in what can be done.
 

Clivew

Member
Nov 19, 2019
225
361
Bedford, UK
On TTX the 4way is just a 10% cost of changing valves from 2 way. We will be tuning it on the track with Ohlins engineer and there is nothing difficult nowadays about high speed suspension logs.

So you will have data logging and high frequency sampling of the suspension, yes?

No, something isn’t as difficult if you are an expert in it, with plenty of experience, but unless you are, how do you know how difficult it is? How many suspension histograms have you analysed to enable you to set-up suspension?

Is this car going to be competing, and are you aiming for fractions of a second off lap times?

Are you going to have an Ohlins engineer with the car to set it up, when you use the car at different race tracks?
 

Mash

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Nov 10, 2019
994
777
Prague
So you will have data logging and high frequency sampling of the suspension, yes?

No, something isn’t as difficult if you are an expert in it, with plenty of experience, but unless you are, how do you know how difficult it is? How many suspension histograms have you analysed to enable you to set-up suspension?

Is this car going to be competing, and are you aiming for fractions of a second off lap times?

Are you going to have an Ohlins engineer with the car to set it up, when you use the car at different race tracks?
Yes, I plan to have suspension sampling.
I said it's not difficult to have sampling.
I said I won't be setting up the suspension myself.
This car is going to be competing, but not on a pro level as I've said.
I am not aiming for fractions of seconds, I'm aiming to find the limit of good balance setup.
I'm not going to have Ohlins engineer with me on other tracks - I'm going to learn in the process how to do it myself.

I can't figure out what is your problem, so I'm going to just save time and ignore you for the rest of the life of this forum.
 

Clivew

Member
Nov 19, 2019
225
361
Bedford, UK
Yes, I plan to have suspension sampling.
I said it's not difficult to have sampling.
I said I won't be setting up the suspension myself.
This car is going to be competing, but not on a pro level as I've said.
I am not aiming for fractions of seconds, I'm aiming to find the limit of good balance setup.
I'm not going to have Ohlins engineer with me on other tracks - I'm going to learn in the process how to do it myself.

I can't figure out what is your problem, so I'm going to just save time and ignore you for the rest of the life of this forum.

My problem, what, because I ask relevant questions of why you need to fit Ohlins 4 way suspension to a road car, and ask how are you going to set it up correctly? If you want the suspension to work properly, you will need proper data logging along with the relevant experience to enable you to set it up correctly at each track you attend. If you don’t do this, you will gain no benefit from 4 way suspension, and if set-up wrong, will lose you grip.

But hey, if you just want to impress the non informed on a forum, fitting Ohlins TTX 4 way looks very impressive.

Good for you if you want to spend that amount of money on suspension. But I personally think it is a waste of your money for your application and experience.
 

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