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TACC failure on Tesla Vision software
- Thread starter Gratulin
- Start date
No, it just will need qualification. Waymo taxis are geofenced, and almost certainly have circumstances even within the geofence area (earthquakes?). There are always going to be times when a human can negotiate a situation and a computer cannot. But these are the exceptions that prove the rule. Most taxi trips are either from address-to-address in a city or from an address to an airport or similar. Does that mean a Tesla will be able to drive you from your home to the airport while there is a hurricane blowing? Of course not.
If, how and when Tesla get to this point is of course a matter of debate, and certainly no-one except Elon believes it's just around the corner. Tesla are attempting something that is very hard and has never been done before. And guess what? It's a teensy bit tricky to predict how long that will take.
best not to call it "FSD" particularly if the infant may not become an adult for 20-30 years if ever, and certainly not with the hardware we currently have.
Uncertainly yes, but history and many broken promises has demonstrated the progress or lack thereof thus far. There can be surprises in technology but most of time it is actually quite predictable for the technically minded.Well when it comes to technology even looking 2-3 years ahead is fraught with uncertainty, but you are entitled to your opinions.
I certainly don't consider it a deal breaker. I've been driving 58 years in all sorts of vehicles including heavy trucks, 4WDs professionally, driven around and through Australia. Driven extensively in many countries around the world. My car has improved in the 13 months I have owned it and it is my best car (overall). I have one other EV which is much more basic. I'll never willingly go back to a fossil. The car (3LR) is comfortable, very pleasant to drive, great drivetrain, excellent performance and I have lots of positives about it. I enjoy driving and will accept any help I can get from the technology but do not think any car will be autonomous in my (remaining) lifetime and will live with a few shortcomings provided I perceive people are working on them and I know what they are.
Not for me. I've had a Model 3 since 2019 (just basic TACC & Autopilot, not EAP or FSD) and I use TACC pretty much every drive, and Autopilot often on freeways/motorways. The main consideration to keep in mind is not to try using TACC on roads where people park in the marked left hand lane, because it does not like that. Apart from that I don't use TACC passing cyclists either (basically it doesn't like passing anything in your own lane, for what I think should be fairly obvious reasons), and I'm aware of how it will slow for crossing traffic.
I can't remember the last time I had an actual phantom braking event (as in, braking for no discernible reason), which may be partly because I have the TACC follow distance set to 4. If I had to replace the car today, I'd be looking at another Model 3.
I will not be buying another tesla. The lack of a safe TACC, the lack of decent voice recognition, the hideous failures caused by endless ‘updates’, and the phantom braking are all sufficient for me to not have tesla on my list for my next EV. I accept the compromise that I may loose slight efficiency, but that doesn’t rate highly for my city car charged from excess solar. I have zero desire to give up driving as I enjoy it, so full autonomous driving isn’t a criteria and in any case will never be in my lifetime.
But I do not regret owning a tesla. Incredible car, and if there was no competition I guess I‘d put up with the gripes, but there now are viable alternatives
Zoltrix77
Member
I just used a throw away line. I, and many others see full self driving as somthing WAY WAY off into the future, if ever. Computers are comparitively terrible at these types of tasks compared to a human.
My biggest issue with FSD, is not that Tesla is trying to acheive it, its a great project, its the fact that they are showing complete contempt for there customers that are still living in the present. Radar does a better job, ultra sonic sensors do a better job, rain sensors do a better job. We use our cars today, which means we need these sensors today. It does preclude the FSD siftware running in shadow mode to collect its future defining data.
Driving with Teslas vision based systems is a akin to driving twice, one is keeping and eye on the normal task of driving, the 2nd is keeping an eye on the cars driving. Its not enjoyable. Its like driving whilst supervising a learner, not what you want everytime you get in a car. I teach my kids to drive for free, but the driving instructer gets paid to teach them. We are expected to baby sit the car for free. Now features are being removed you are lieterally getting an inferior product. Even decent sensors are getting disabled by software.
Actually, I would argue the opposite. Driving is (mostly) a mechanical process involving hand/eye coordination and the memorization of a set of rules about what to do in specific circumstances. This is exactly what a computer is good at, and humans are BAD at. Almost all road accidents are caused by humans failing in these simple repetitive tasks. Not paying attention. Texting instead of driving. DUI. Not checking blind spots. Failing to stop at a red light. And on and on. None of these involve advanced thinking skills, they are all down to lapses in attention, simple mistakes, or lack of caring or consideration.
Of course, there is that "almost", and sure enough when presented with a unique situation a computer will fall flat on its face, while (we hope) a human will figure out the sensible thing to do. But those are few and far between, and, as I note above, not the source of most accidents. Sure, a car is dumb as molasses, even with the best NN, but it NEVER lapses in its attention, or forgets to put on a turn signal, or check its blind spot etc etc.
The point is, humans and computers are complementary. We are useless at things the computer is good at, and vice versa. So we want a computer to take care of "boring old day in day out drive to work" type stuff, and humans to intervene when something bizarre or unexpected comes up. That way, we get the robustness and vigilance of a computer, with the situational judgment of a human when needed.
Doing some rural driving on the weekend I had the worst phantom braking episode ever.
I was doing 100 on a 2-lane road approaching a gentle crest, tree shadows over the road, when the car suddenly brakes for no reason slowing down to 80 pretty quickly.
Normally these episodes are very brief and the car speeds up again - but it seemed this time the car would have continued to slow down had I not hit the accelerator to stop this nonsense and not be rear-ended by a 4WD not far behind.
Tesla Vision SUCKS and even when I tried TACC back on the freeway it was skittish for no reason.
Had to turn it off for the rest of the trip.
This rubbish is nowhere near good enough Elon!
I was doing 100 on a 2-lane road approaching a gentle crest, tree shadows over the road, when the car suddenly brakes for no reason slowing down to 80 pretty quickly.
Normally these episodes are very brief and the car speeds up again - but it seemed this time the car would have continued to slow down had I not hit the accelerator to stop this nonsense and not be rear-ended by a 4WD not far behind.
Tesla Vision SUCKS and even when I tried TACC back on the freeway it was skittish for no reason.
Had to turn it off for the rest of the trip.
This rubbish is nowhere near good enough Elon!
As annoying as you may feel it is, that does not seem too bad to me. Came to a crest, shadows on road & car slowed from 100 to 80 before you took over? Maybe your car decided to brake check the 4wd tailgating you
I use AP all the time out on regional roads and it works fine for me. Occasionally it brakes when it shouldn't and I press the accelerator to override. It is annoying, but it is more than made up for by all the times the system alerts me in positive ways.
Zoltrix77
Member
Well computers ARE good at following a set of rules on what to do in specific circumstances, I agree. Thats why computers superceeded humans in the known knowns tasks decades ago. But the real world is not a controlled environment and is full of unkown unkowns. I mean, the simple issue of camera lenses being blocked can bring the whole system down.
"The point is, humans and computers are complementary. We are useless at things the computer is good at, and vice versa. So we want a computer to take care of "boring old day in day out drive to work" type stuff, and humans to intervene when something bizarre or unexpected comes up. That way, we get the robustness and vigilance of a computer, with the situational judgment of a human when needed".
So you agree that you let the car drive but have to watch over it the whole time, which in itself will probably mean the human will fail to catch the computers mistake. In effect. that means you are still driving to work.
Like I said, I am not against FSD, just do not understand why Tesla is removing features that make it harder and harder to use the basic features that are a non issue in almost every other brand.
I am not really buying into this whole Robo Taxi BS, because electric cars are NOT a complete environmental solution to our modern city issues. Even if cars are being used more effectively with Robo Taxi, the fact is that everyone still wants to travel at the exact same time they do now, and the reduction of car use is minimal. It is certainly still creating traffic that should be replaced with good public transport.
Robo taxi is a way to extend the life of urban sprawl by extending the last mile, instead of reducing or eliminating the last mile. It's part of a larger battle between public infrastructure and private investment. No different to the hyperloop distraction intended to slow down California high speed rail.
Candleflame
Active Member
all other automakers doesnt feel like a human is driving when autosteer is on. With Tesla you can literally turn it on and people generally wont be able to tell.
Not sure how good the bmw i4 does it these days but 2 years ago they were still pingponging all over the road...
Tesla does need to improve. However, last year I drove a Kia Sportage (petrol) for 6wks while my Zoe was being fixed (charging problem). I found the lane keeping terrible with it wandering left and right and not really able to stay in the lane. Constant oscillations of the steering wheel were disconcerting. The "smart" CC was also not usable around town 'though maybe it worked okay on the highway (didn't try that). That experience steered me away from the Kia EV to the Model 3 and I find TACC and AP way better than the Kia experience. But they do have "warts".
I do have a lot of concerns about the removal of Ultrasonic sensors and Radar particularly when relying totally on cameras which really seem to have poor low-light performance leading to all sorts of issues. As a former engineer and software/hardware designer, I would rather have multiple systems with overlap in capability in order to cover the broadest range of contingencies.
But I do still like our 3LR very much. Great performance, excellent to drive and I won't be getting rid of it any time soon.
I'm a huge fan of basic AP and actually had no issue when my radar was disabled, but that all changed over the past two weeks when it's started raining in Seattle and the day becomes shorter. On multiple occasions when it's fairly dark and rainy, the car will suddenly slow down in the middle of the freeway due to poor visibility. It had zero problem navigating the same stretch of road in the same condition when it had radar, and the environment is definitely safe enough for humans to drive, but Tesla Vision completely failed. Since everyone is driving in normal speed around me the slow downs made it dangerous.
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