Take me to school. Diff between 85D and P85D

[Webeevdrivers]

Hi folks. Angela and I are getting schooled up on the S in case we decide to get a used one instead of a New 3. We are currently looking at the 85 series. Why is the range so much higher on the non P. Looking at two on the Tesla website and seeing quite the discrepancy. What are the primary differences.

As well. We have heard we should look at 2015 and later models. Any thoughts on this? We are a year or two away from the purchase but need to be ready if the right car shows up. As well, we are in Canada in case that makes re climate features etc. Where we live is not really cold. Mild winters, long summers.

Is there a breakdown of the nomenclature as far as P D etc goes.

Thank you for taking us to school. Nice to know what to look for on the Tesla Canadian website.

John and Angela.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

An 85 has a rear motor, a large one. an 85D has two motors, a small front and a small rear. A p85D has a large rear and a small front motor.
Motor size is part of it. Battery size and if it is uncorkerked, or set up as a performance unit (bigger fuse) are important variants - that show up as 75D, 85D,P85D, P85d+.
Some have said that the 85 line is now an orphan product. It should still be an awsome car, but the last of its kind.
The roadsters are looking at the end of their 10 year battery life. Longevity of the battrery - whether used or stored - seems to be 10 years. Some batteries have been abused - overcharging and left in a 100% charged mode. I would venture a guess that most Tesla owners baby their investment and behave well. But there are always that other kind out there.

 

[gabeincal]

D - All wheel drive
P - Performance (higher power and torque than the same 'number' model, i.e P85 is faster and more powerful than 85)
Underscore on the label - ludicrous mode: this was only available on P models and this is an even faster drivetrain than the regular P

Range is lower on P models because of the more powerful drivetrain.
Range is lowered by larger wheels & tires. You'll get 5% or so more range on 19" tires than 21".

The Model S has improved dramatically from early versions (2013). 2015 and 2016s are better sound insulated, have sometimes better equipment and interior quality. With that said, you never know what you get as 2 models from the same year can have different trim, equipment, insulation, power, etc

Let me know if you have more questions

 

[Webeevdrivers]

D - All wheel drive
P - Performance (higher power and torque than the same 'number' model, i.e P85 is faster and more powerful than 85)
Underscore on the label - ludicrous mode: this was only available on P models and this is an even faster drivetrain than the regular P

Range is lower on P models because of the more powerful drivetrain.
Range is lowered by larger wheels & tires. You'll get 5% or so more range on 19" tires than 21".

The Model S has improved dramatically from early versions (2013). 2015 and 2016s are better sound insulated, have sometimes better equipment and interior quality. With that said, you never know what you get as 2 models from the same year can have different trim, equipment, insulation, power, etc

Let me know if you have more questions

Thanks to both of the above posters. Makes sense. I don't think we would need the high performance mode. And for range anything over about 400 KM is gravy for us so maybe even a 70 would work. When was the last year they made the 70 series.

Are any of the American Tesla's importable to Canada. Not a biggy. Just lets us know where NOT to look.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Dakkor]

Thanks to both of the above posters. Makes sense. I don't think we would need the high performance mode. And for range anything over about 400 KM is gravy for us so maybe even a 70 would work. When was the last year they made the 70 series.

Are any of the American Tesla's importable to Canada. Not a biggy. Just lets us know where NOT to look.

Thanks in advance.

You cannot import a Model S or X from America to Canada.

 

[bmah]

Good info upthread. A few other tidbits on the 85 kWh cars:

Supposedly the number (85) refers to the battery size in kWh. This isn't exactly true...the "85 kWh" battery in particular is really something like 81 kWh, with about 78 kWh usable. I wouldn't obsess over this fact, what's important is how far that battery will get you. But the reason for bringing this up is that the difference in range between the 85D and the 75D isn't as large as those numbers would indicate.

You didn't say if you care about autopilot or not, so I'll put in a few thoughts here. The original Model S predated autopilot. Autopilot hardware (AP1) was introduced to the Model S beginning in late 2014. Around that time, the P85 and P85+ were phased out, to be replaced with the 85D and P85D (and later the P85D). Because these two changes didn't quite happen at the same time, however, some P85 and P85+ got AP1 hardware. These are kind of "unicorns" of the 85 kWh cars (and IMHO the best rear-wheel drive Model Ss). All dual-motor 85 kWh cars (85D, P85D, P85D) have AP1 hardware. No 85kWh cars have AP2 or AP2.5 hardware.

The single-motor 85 kWh cars (85, P85, P85+) have cavernous frunks (front trunks). The dual-motor cars (85D, P85D, P85D) have somewhat smaller frunks, but both of these frunk configurations are larger than what Tesla ships today. Related to this, all 85 kWh cars were produced before the Model S's minor design refresh in 2016, so they all have nosecones, none of them have the HEPA filter or bioweapon defense mode.

Note that sometime in March or April 2015, Tesla juggled around the option packages on the Model S, so if you're comparing cars built before and after this time, you might need to do some conversion of options in the options packages to do a real apples-to-apples comparison.

Sometime in mid 2015, the 85D got a speed-up, so that its 0-60 mph time went from about 5.4 seconds to 4.2 seconds (typing those from memory, might not be 100% accurate). The P85D also got a speed-up. This change was done totally in software, but is somewhat similar to the "uncorking" that S75Ds recently got.

Someone commented that the 85 kWh cars are orphaned. I don't feel this way about my 85D, which was the longest-range Tesla at the time it was built. AP1 is solid and dependable if you use it within its limit and for what it was intended. For improvements and bug fixes unrelated to autopilot, we get all the same software changes that the newer cars get.

OK. That wasn't really a few tidbits, it was a brain dump. I hope it's helpful. Feel free to post or PM if you have more specific questions.

Bruce.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Good info upthread. A few other tidbits on the 85 kWh cars:

Supposedly the number (85) refers to the battery size in kWh. This isn't exactly true...the "85 kWh" battery in particular is really something like 81 kWh, with about 78 kWh usable. I wouldn't obsess over this fact, what's important is how far that battery will get you. But the reason for bringing this up is that the difference in range between the 85D and the 75D isn't as large as those numbers would indicate.

You didn't say if you care about autopilot or not, so I'll put in a few thoughts here. The original Model S predated autopilot. Autopilot hardware (AP1) was introduced to the Model S beginning in late 2014. Around that time, the P85 and P85+ were phased out, to be replaced with the 85D and P85D (and later the P85D). Because these two changes didn't quite happen at the same time, however, some P85 and P85+ got AP1 hardware. These are kind of "unicorns" of the 85 kWh cars (and IMHO the best rear-wheel drive Model Ss). All dual-motor 85 kWh cars (85D, P85D, P85D) have AP1 hardware. No 85kWh cars have AP2 or AP2.5 hardware.

The single-motor 85 kWh cars (85, P85, P85+) have cavernous frunks (front trunks). The dual-motor cars (85D, P85D, P85D) have somewhat smaller frunks, but both of these frunk configurations are larger than what Tesla ships today. Related to this, all 85 kWh cars were produced before the Model S's minor design refresh in 2016, so they all have nosecones, none of them have the HEPA filter or bioweapon defense mode.

Note that sometime in March or April 2015, Tesla juggled around the option packages on the Model S, so if you're comparing cars built before and after this time, you might need to do some conversion of options in the options packages to do a real apples-to-apples comparison.

Sometime in mid 2015, the 85D got a speed-up, so that its 0-60 mph time went from about 5.4 seconds to 4.2 seconds (typing those from memory, might not be 100% accurate). The P85D also got a speed-up. This change was done totally in software, but is somewhat similar to the "uncorking" that S75Ds recently got.

Someone commented that the 85 kWh cars are orphaned. I don't feel this way about my 85D, which was the longest-range Tesla at the time it was built. AP1 is solid and dependable if you use it within its limit and for what it was intended. For improvements and bug fixes unrelated to autopilot, we get all the same software changes that the newer cars get.

OK. That wasn't really a few tidbits, it was a brain dump. I hope it's helpful. Feel free to post or PM if you have more specific questions.

Bruce.

That was very informative. We will start to build a hit list of important things to us. The higher performance would not be a draw for us so we will be probably looking for a non D or even P model although if everything else was right we would be fine with it. This car will be taking us into retirement so we want to see a solid 10 years out of it. Our budget will be around 60,000 Canadian and if we want to see a model year 2015 or newer we will probably have to wait a bit. They seem to be in the mid 70's Canadian right now. The alternative is a new model 3 which is a possibility. I think for our needs even a 70 like this would work. Like I say, any more than 400 KM range is gravy for us. Comments on the 70??? anything special other than a smaller battery?

Car - 2016 Tesla Model S in TORONTO, ON $76,500

 

[brkaus]

Not sure how insurance rates work there. A P was significantly more expensive here.

I took some VINs off the CPO and/or inventory pages and got rates with multiple insurance agent before I excluded the P models.

Everyone’s rates are different, etc...

 

[bmah]

That was very informative. We will start to build a hit list of important things to us. The higher performance would not be a draw for us so we will be probably looking for a non D or even P model although if everything else was right we would be fine with it. This car will be taking us into retirement so we want to see a solid 10 years out of it. Our budget will be around 60,000 Canadian and if we want to see a model year 2015 or newer we will probably have to wait a bit. They seem to be in the mid 70's Canadian right now. The alternative is a new model 3 which is a possibility. I think for our needs even a 70 like this would work. Like I say, any more than 400 KM range is gravy for us. Comments on the 70??? anything special other than a smaller battery?

Car - 2016 Tesla Model S in TORONTO, ON $76,500

You mentioned 400km of range. That's about 250 miles (sorry, I have to convert to dumb American units to think about this stuff). That might be doable, but a couple of points to consider: 1) Just like with ICE cars you oftentimes don't get the estimated range, and there are a lot of factors that affect your actual range (how fast you drive, wind, weather conditions, weight, etc.). 2) Point #1 is mitigated somewhat by the fact that charging infrastructure is becoming more ubiquitous, at least more common. I don't mean to worry you over range issues, though. There's no better longer-range EV than a Tesla.

If I remember right, some of the 70s were software-limited 75s, in which the extra, unused battery capacity could be unlocked for a fee (I don't remember which vintage of 70/70D had these).

For the specific car you linked, note that it's a 70D, not a 70. The difference between the 70 and 70D at purchase time was about $5000 US. It looks like it has the base 19" wheels...the tires will last longer (in general) than the 21" wheels. (As an aside I got 37,000 miles on the original tires on my car.) It doesn't say if the car has coil suspension or air suspension...I'm guessing it has coils (adjustable, but fewer things to break).

I don't have any intuition about the price or the Canadian market, unfortunately.

Feel free to keep asking questions.

Bruce.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

You mentioned 400km of range. That's about 250 miles (sorry, I have to convert to dumb American units to think about this stuff). That might be doable, but a couple of points to consider: 1) Just like with ICE cars you oftentimes don't get the estimated range, and there are a lot of factors that affect your actual range (how fast you drive, wind, weather conditions, weight, etc.). 2) Point #1 is mitigated somewhat by the fact that charging infrastructure is becoming more ubiquitous, at least more common. I don't mean to worry you over range issues, though. There's no better longer-range EV than a Tesla.

If I remember right, some of the 70s were software-limited 75s, in which the extra, unused battery capacity could be unlocked for a fee (I don't remember which vintage of 70/70D had these).

For the specific car you linked, note that it's a 70D, not a 70. The difference between the 70 and 70D at purchase time was about $5000 US. It looks like it has the base 19" wheels...the tires will last longer (in general) than the 21" wheels. (As an aside I got 37,000 miles on the original tires on my car.) It doesn't say if the car has coil suspension or air suspension...I'm guessing it has coils (adjustable, but fewer things to break).

I don't have any intuition about the price or the Canadian market, unfortunately.

Feel free to keep asking questions.

Bruce.

Hi Bruce. Again very informative. We both drive EV's right now so understand the ramifications of conditions, speed, style of driving etc. Angela drives a smart ED convertible and I drive a 2016 30 KWH Nissan Leaf SV. Right now range is not an issue as we seldom leave our Valley (driving anyway) and the times we do we have good DC fast charge options on the routes we travel. But that will all change when we retire in about 4 years at 60. We don't hang around Canada during the 4 winter months so winter range is not a big deal but the ability to take a slow meandering coastal trip to SOCAL is something we will need to be able to do. I think 400 KM would probably work for us and we have no problem taking longer breaks. Its kind of how we travel anyway.

I would be interested in your comments on my plans for a "10 year car" on a car that is already 3 years old. You have a Telsa, have seen its build quality, battery performance (degradation). Is this a reasonable expectation or is that not something you would count on. We are in decent shape financially, not wealthy but well planned and conservatively invested. But a 60 to 70,000 dollar expenditure is not something I would want to do (or can do) very often and specifically on a depreciating asset. Like any depreciating asset we never finance more than half...and never any less. Just our comfort zone with depreciating assets. Tesla specific comments welcome on this topic although I don't expect a Tesla is any different. Still a bad investment.

Thanks.

John

 

[whitex]

Comments on the 70??? anything special other than a smaller battery?

Car - 2016 Tesla Model S in TORONTO, ON $76,500

Just a quick point which may not be clear to someone not familiar with Tesla history; the listing says "AutoPilot 1 Hardware" which usually means autopilot option is not activated. If that's the case, if you want to use TACC and/or Auto-steer, you will have to pay Tesla to activate it (in the US it was $3,000 USD last I checked, so ~$4,000 Can). Also, this must be really early 2016 as it is pre-refresh (picture shows a nose one), which probably means it is not a software limited 75KWh battery, like some of the later 70's.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Just a quick point which may not be clear to someone not familiar with Tesla history; the listing says "AutoPilot 1 Hardware" which usually means autopilot option is not activated. If that's the case, if you want to use TACC and/or Auto-steer, you will have to pay Tesla to activate it (in the US it was $3,000 USD last I checked, so ~$4,000 Can). Also, this must be really early 2016 as it is pre-refresh (picture shows a nose one), which probably means it is not a software limited 75KWh battery, like some of the later 70's.

Thanks you.

 

[Don85D]

We made the same decision that a Model S 85D would be our last car. We used the government rebate to purchase a solar array for the house and now the Tesla runs for free 25,000 km/year. The panels will last 30 years and I am expecting the same for the Model S. Even if the panels degrade and the car battery too we will also degrade in that time with much less long distance driving after age 100.

We have taken our 85D on road trips to the Atlantic provinces and south along the US East Coast. Charging stops were not a problem as there are many B&Bs and hotels that offer free destination charging. We booked ahead to reserve a room and the charger for the night. No problems. If you check out the Tesla Supercharger map you will see many new Superchargers under construction along the Trans Canada highway. Travel should be faster and easier next summer. We do carry a CHAdeMO cable and have used it once at a Nissan dealership in Maine. Mostly we keep the car topped up to 85% capacity every night at home and range has never been an issue.

Best of all the 85D is a wonderfully comfortable highway car. We have no need for Auto Pilot as we prefer to drive. The few times that we tested AP1 it worked well but no advantage for us. Traffic aware cruise control is a nice upgrade over cruise control in previous cars.

For us the 85D is perfect and a weekend test of a P90D Ludicrous proved that we do not need that level of acceleration. If not used wisely it can confuse other drivers who would have difficulty judging approach speeds. The 85D may look like an orphan in the race to bigger batteries and faster performance but those measurements don't tell the real life story.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

We made the same decision that a Model S 85D would be our last car. We used the government rebate to purchase a solar array for the house and now the Tesla runs for free 25,000 km/year. The panels will last 30 years and I am expecting the same for the Model S. Even if the panels degrade and the car battery too we will also degrade in that time with much less long distance driving after age 100.

We have taken our 85D on road trips to the Atlantic provinces and south along the US East Coast. Charging stops were not a problem as there are many B&Bs and hotels that offer free destination charging. We booked ahead to reserve a room and the charger for the night. No problems. If you check out the Tesla Supercharger map you will see many new Superchargers under construction along the Trans Canada highway. Travel should be faster and easier next summer. We do carry a CHAdeMO cable and have used it once at a Nissan dealership in Maine. Mostly we keep the car topped up to 85% capacity every night at home and range has never been an issue.

Best of all the 85D is a wonderfully comfortable highway car. We have no need for Auto Pilot as we prefer to drive. The few times that we tested AP1 it worked well but no advantage for us. Traffic aware cruise control is a nice upgrade over cruise control in previous cars.

For us the 85D is perfect and a weekend test of a P90D Ludicrous proved that we do not need that level of acceleration. If not used wisely it can confuse other drivers who would have difficulty judging approach speeds. The 85D may look like an orphan in the race to bigger batteries and faster performance but those measurements don't tell the real life story.

Thank you for taking the time to type that out. That is helpful. So much to consider. We would love to add solar but we live in a great Townhouse community. Unfortunately I don't think they would allow it. Plus the reality is our hydro bills are 120 bucks every two months and that includes charging two vehicles. So at this time it is not really worth it.

Thanks again.

John and Angela

 

[jbcarioca]

There have been many good responses. Just a couple points you might consider.

There were a handful of 2014 build P85D and 85D. Those will be slightly cheaper than the 2015 but are exactly the same cars and have been pretty much trouble free. I have a 2014 P85D which has been stellar.

As for durability, there are quite a few extremely high use Tesla's around. There is a taxi driver in Quebec City who has driven more than 400,000 km on his at much lower cost and fewer repairs than he had on his previous Subaru. I could not find teh reference just now. There is also a company named Tesloop that has Tesla's with >200,000 miles with minimal problems.

The only cautions I offer are ones you already know since you have BEV's. Those being the cold weather reduced range, but that is no more problem than in other BEV's and Tesla AWD models are famously capable in snow and ice. Mine has been astoundingly good.

Choosing between a Model 3 and Model S is the hard part, IMO. If the extra size is not an impediment the Model S does have more features, such as free Supercharging and cavernous carrying capacity. Then there is the instant gratification.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

There have been many good responses. Just a couple points you might consider.

There were a handful of 2014 build P85D and 85D. Those will be slightly cheaper than the 2015 but are exactly the same cars and have been pretty much trouble free. I have a 2014 P85D which has been stellar.

As for durability, there are quite a few extremely high use Tesla's around. There is a taxi driver in Quebec City who has driven more than 400,000 km on his at much lower cost and fewer repairs than he had on his previous Subaru. I could not find teh reference just now. There is also a company named Tesloop that has Tesla's with >200,000 miles with minimal problems.

The only cautions I offer are ones you already know since you have BEV's. Those being the cold weather reduced range, but that is no more problem than in other BEV's and Tesla AWD models are famously capable in snow and ice. Mine has been astoundingly good.

Choosing between a Model 3 and Model S is the hard part, IMO. If the extra size is not an impediment the Model S does have more features, such as free Supercharging and cavernous carrying capacity. Then there is the instant gratification.

Isn't that the truth. But we will wait a bit just because it would be a waste for at least the next year. We want to be informed though so if something comes up we know what to look for. Our present EV's serve us well and honestly our Leaf SV is without a doubt the best car we have ever owned.

Thank you for your input.

 

[bmah]

Hi Bruce. Again very informative. We both drive EV's right now so understand the ramifications of conditions, speed, style of driving etc. Angela drives a smart ED convertible and I drive a 2016 30 KWH Nissan Leaf SV. Right now range is not an issue as we seldom leave our Valley (driving anyway) and the times we do we have good DC fast charge options on the routes we travel. But that will all change when we retire in about 4 years at 60. We don't hang around Canada during the 4 winter months so winter range is not a big deal but the ability to take a slow meandering coastal trip to SOCAL is something we will need to be able to do. I think 400 KM would probably work for us and we have no problem taking longer breaks. Its kind of how we travel anyway.

I would be interested in your comments on my plans for a "10 year car" on a car that is already 3 years old. You have a Telsa, have seen its build quality, battery performance (degradation). Is this a reasonable expectation or is that not something you would count on. We are in decent shape financially, not wealthy but well planned and conservatively invested. But a 60 to 70,000 dollar expenditure is not something I would want to do (or can do) very often and specifically on a depreciating asset. Like any depreciating asset we never finance more than half...and never any less. Just our comfort zone with depreciating assets. Tesla specific comments welcome on this topic although I don't expect a Tesla is any different. Still a bad investment.

Hey John, it's great that you and your wife are already driving electric. So you "get it" with charging, etc.!

Hmmm...the longevity of the Model S is (IMHO) is a little hard to predict, because the oldest samples in the wild are something like 5-6 years old (ergo, there's no data on a 10-year-old Model S). There are records of high-mileage (i.e. many miles driven) Teslas, so they're clearly capable of lasting for hundreds of thousands of miles. Personally, I've had a few more issues than with my previous car (a 2005 Prius which I drove for 10 years and 206K miles), but nothing truly crippling. You can probably find a wide spread of experiences here on the TMC forums, from "everything's perfect" to "nightmare", and common wisdom has it that people with problems are more likely to post their stories. For what it's worth, at purchase time I was expecting my Model S to last for at least 8 years, and 2.5 years and 40K miles in, I can picture that actually happening. (I also like to keep cars for a long time, as you point out they're really bad investments.) And given my experience so far, if I had to replace mine, I'd probably do another Model S.

Bruce.

 

[SmartElectric]

Canadian 2017 Smart ED (the new design, trade the older design model in recently) and 2013 Tesla S 85 owner here.
Bought the S85 via Tesla CPO (aka used) program a few years ago for around the money you were willing to pay. Buying CPO meant we have a warranty till 2019 (bumper-bumper) and 2021 (battery and motor).

While this older 2013 Tesla doesn't have auto-pilot, it also is in my garage, so the "have it now" factor is certainly there! It has "sufficient" performance, trust me, you won't find even the base Tesla wanting for light to light acceleration or highway overtaking. We still have 414+km range reported, around 97% original battery capacity after 100,000 km.

I have a Model 3 reservation, and am likely to trade our S85 in (or more realistically sell private) as it will be 6 years old by the estimated late 2018, early 2019 production date. I have estimated the Model 3 will actually cost more per month (depreciation, etc) than the used Tesla S will.

 

[Mobsidian]

Hi John and Angela,

I don't have much to add since previous posters have done such a good job. Just wanted to say I'm in the same boat. Looking for a used S within 60k that has AP1 and am also a day 1 model 3 reservation holder. I was seriously considering buying a P85 2012 Signature S for 49k CAD. It's a great price but without warranty I have my reservations. I also keep my cars for 5 years or more so I'd prefer something that has the tech that will be somewhat future proof. The issue is the CPO cars that have 2 or 4 year warranties are all overpriced in my opinion. There have been some decently priced ones in the past but they get snapped up quickly not to mention the ones that never show up on the CPO website, I've heard the sales department has access to more cars so they might be able to find you one as well.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Hi John and Angela,

I don't have much to add since previous posters have done such a good job. Just wanted to say I'm in the same boat. Looking for a used S within 60k that has AP1 and am also a day 1 model 3 reservation holder. I was seriously considering buying a P85 2012 Signature S for 49k CAD. It's a great price but without warranty I have my reservations. I also keep my cars for 5 years or more so I'd prefer something that has the tech that will be somewhat future proof. The issue is the CPO cars that have 2 or 4 year warranties are all overpriced in my opinion. There have been some decently priced ones in the past but they get snapped up quickly not to mention the ones that never show up on the CPO website, I've heard the sales department has access to more cars so they might be able to find you one as well.

Yah. I also have a bit of sticker price shock. We are starting to think our upper end budget will be 60K Can, including tax. But I think with the entry of the 3 that by the time we are ready to upgrade (1 to 3 years) I think the used S fleet maybe a little more affordable. We are not stressing it at this point as our Leaf serves all our needs quite well at this point. We like the idea of the supercharger network but who knows, a high end 2020 leaf will still be under 40 K and by then will probably have a 400 KM range. Meantime, we'll keep watching auto trader and continue the education process on Teslas. Still my first choice.