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Tankless water heaters are terrible....

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Water tank heat as surplus storage is a really interesting concept that I'd never considered. Thanks to all for discussing in the last page or two. I am curious if anyone has done any kind of "smart" tweaking to their system in order to take advantage of heavy usage times/surplus generation times. I spent a little time checking out the Rheem connected options to see if anyone has poked into their API. A few appear to have done so, and I bet I could write a plugin for my home automation software. That would allow me to create rules around when to preload the heater.

I have a couple of thermostatically controlled fixtures in my house - namely the two showers. Water control requires me to push in an override to exceed 100°F at the shower head. I'm guessing that there is some risk to making household water overly hot, since most fixtures do not have this kind of thermal protection.
The rheem system uses their proprietary Econet platform. It's all cloud controlled. Some people have figured out certain endpoints. I found one that lists the power usage and published my findings on the 'smarthings' website.

I haven't tried pushing any settings yet, just reading the values.
 
Random googled data:
Water heaters must be less than 140 F per IPC, can be higher if approved mixing valve is installed on output.
120 F is considered the limit for scald protection.
110 F is ADA/ child safer.
The other issue is that setting the temperature lower also promotes the growth of legionnaires. Most recommend a minimum of 120F to prevent the growth of legionnaires.

This limits your ability to use your hot water heater as a method of energy storage safely, unless you do add a thermostatic mixing valve which allows you to set your water heater temperature higher.

The rheem system uses their proprietary Econet platform. It's all cloud controlled. Some people have figured out certain endpoints. I found one that lists the power usage and published my findings on the 'smarthings' website.

I haven't tried pushing any settings yet, just reading the values.
I just installed a Rheem 50 gal Heat Pump Water. The short-review: It's quiet (can barely hear it on the other side of a wall), and if the consumption data being provided by the Econet app is to be believed, it's very efficient in heat-pump mode only using about 1.4 kWh / day on average for the past 3 days with typical hot water use. This is in San Diego, so relatively warm inlet water temps (after the first fill, tank measured ~70F) and relatively warm ambient temps (garage ranging from 70-75F).

This replaced a 12 yo gas water heater rated to use 250 therms/year, but I estimate only used 84 therms/year or 7 therms/month based on my billing data from non-heating months (hard to completely separate furnace gas usage from water heater gas usage).

If the Econet energy usage data is correct, it's on track to only use 40-50 kWh / this month. This is the equivalent of about 1.4-1.7 therms of gas / month in raw energy. If the heat-pump has an UEF of 3.5 and the old gas heater an UEF of 0.6, does this add up? 50 kWh of heat pump energy over a month turns into 175 kWh of energy into the tank. A therm of gas has 29.3 kWh equivalent, of which only 60% makes it out of the tank - 7 therms * 29.3 kwh * 60% = 123 kWh of energy. Hmm, so maybe not as efficient as it claims? Either way, I'm not even going to able to notice 50 kWh / month on my energy bill.

As far as using Econet to assist with energy storage - one real drawback is that you have to use the app to program the water heater for different temperatures based on time of day - you can't do it from the control panel. The app is also fairly buggy, at least on Android - it crashes regularly and had some weird issues setting up the time periods in the schedule. It gives you the ability to set 4 different time periods with different operating modes, allowing you to set the time, temperature and operating mode (heat pump, energy saver, high demand, electric). But given the safety issues with varying your temperatures from 120F, that significantly limits the amount of load shifting you can get away with.

A thermostatic mixing valve would let you safely set much higher water temps, but this does come at the expense of a reduction in efficiency - the heat pump will be less efficient in heating water up to higher temperatures than lower temperatures.

For now, I am trying out setting the target temperature to 115F during utility peak rates and 125F the last hour of super-off-peak rates (and 120F the rest of the time), but I think that eventually I will end up narrowing this range down given the low overall usage of the heater.

As an aside - why did I choose this over another gas furnace? At current electricity / gas rates here in San Diego, there is no financial benefit to doing so - in fact, even with the vastly higher efficiency, running the old burner is slightly cheaper - gas is about $1.40/therm, electricity varies from $0.10-0.50/kWh (average around $0.25/kWh). But with the heat pump I get a chance to eliminate a large chunk of my natural gas usage, I get to cool the garage in the summer instead of heating it and I have the ability to add more solar (would only take a single solar panel) to offset the energy usage of that appliance.
 
The figures above regarding equivalent therms per day used by a heat pump water heater prompted me to look at my gas usage.

In the summer when my tankless gas water heat is the only thing consuming gas except the gas cooktop, we average less than 0.6 Therms/day total gas usage. This is a 97% efficient condensing tankless water heater by Navien. I really like this unit, especially the smart recirc system.
NPE-240A | Products | Navien
 
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The figures above regarding equivalent therms per day used by a heat pump water heater prompted me to look at my gas usage.
And your post prompted me to look at mine. Our 2 person household uses 3.5 - 4.5 therms a month for DHW only with an NG condensing tank. It does not seem like a lot but I still wish I could install a heat recovery unit. Perhaps in the future when a kit with a pump is available.
 
... if the consumption data being provided by the Econet app is to be believed, it's very efficient in heat-pump mode only using about 1.4 kWh / day on average for the past 3 days with typical hot water use. This is in San Diego, so relatively warm inlet water temps (after the first fill, tank measured ~70F) and relatively warm ambient temps (garage ranging from 70-75F).

How many in your household and how many showers per day?

We have the 65G variant. 8 total showers per day when no guests. Peak summer is ~ 2 kWh / day and peak winter is 5.5 kWh / day. Besides the decreased efficiency in the winter from lower water/air inlet temperatures, much of the discrepancy is probably from the longer hotter winter showers since that feels too good to pass up on a cold day.

...As far as using Econet to assist with energy storage - one real drawback is that you have to use the app to program the water heater for different temperatures based on time of day - you can't do it from the control panel. The app is also fairly buggy, at least on Android - it crashes regularly and had some weird issues setting up the time periods in the schedule..
Yeah, they have a lot of work to do with EcoNet, it's been a mess since the beginning.

iOS here. EcoNet 4.0 came out a few weeks ago that gave TOU control for the first time. I was pretty excited and set it from my iPhone to only heat during off-peak times. Unfortunately, about a week later my wife called me at work and said there was no hot water. I hadn't changed a thing in a week, but the main unit somehow "forgot" the settings or got disconnected from the EcoNet cloud somehow. So it's been back to not-smart water heater heat pump only mode since then. What the water heater needs is a firmware update for the unit itself to allow TOU/temp programing independent of the internet.
 
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How many in your household and how many showers per day?

We have the 65G variant. 8 total showers per day when no guests. Peak summer is ~ 2 kWh / day and peak winter is 5.5 kWh / day. Besides the decreased efficiency in the winter from lower water/air inlet temperatures, much of the discrepancy is probably from the longer hotter winter showers since that feels too good to pass up on a cold day.
4 people in the house, typically 3-4 showers/day. Should have better data once the system has been running a while. The load is small enough that it's hard to identify looking at 15-min interval data from the utility. Would like to get per-circuit monitoring eventually, but don't want to pay for the system.

Unfortunately, about a week later my wife called me at work and said there was no hot water. I hadn't changed a thing in a week, but the main unit somehow "forgot" the settings or got disconnected from the EcoNet cloud somehow. So it's been back to not-smart water heater heat pump only mode since then. What the water heater needs is a firmware update for the unit itself to allow TOU/temp programing independent of the internet.
Yeah - it seems like they may be using the cloud to remotely set the temperature at transition points? That would be extremely lame, as if your wifi or internet goes down, it will go off schedule. The heater itself should definitely include a RTC and the schedule set points.

Does the system have remote firmware update capability? I also wonder how it's estimating energy usage for the app...

There's definitely some timezone bugs in the system. Besides some weird issues setting up certain time schedules (weird stuff happens if you try times around 12 AM), the usage chart will show consumption for the next day late at night before midnight.

It would also be nice in the app if instead of only showing the current mode / set-temperature of the heater, it also showed you the status of the heat-pump, heating elements and upper/lower tank temperatures, too.

Is there a good way to provide feedback to Rheem?

Despite the EcoNet issues, the heater itself appears to be a quality unit overall, efficient and quiet. There are other opportunities to improve efficiency - for example it would be interesting to try to use it to help cool the house in warmer months as well as ducting outside in the winter months if the garage gets too cold. It would be straight forward to do this using some temperature sensors, ducting and dampers...
 
Has anyone put their heat pump water heater in a partially enclosed room in basement to create a "cold storage room" for produce (and beer)? It's basically a 2 for 1, you get a cold room and hot water.

I don't think that would work very well... the cooling would likely be too erratic to keep the temperature cool enough unless you had another source of cooling.... and then you're not letting the HPWH work to its best efficiency.
 
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Does the system have remote firmware update capability?
Good question. The touchscreen on the unit shows the firmware version in the menu tree, but I don’t think the unit has ever automatically updated this via the cloud or if newer firmware exists. I certainly have not received any notifications requesting permission to download or install any updates.

Is there a good way to provide feedback to Rheem?
Lots of folks leaving critical reviews at the Apple App Store. Guessing same on the Android side. They have a customer support email address. I sent them something a few months back about energy tracking but never heard back.
 
Has anyone put their heat pump water heater in a partially enclosed room in basement to create a "cold storage room" for produce (and beer)? It's basically a 2 for 1, you get a cold room and hot water.
They are amazing, but may not be such a panacea.

As above, intermittency is one of the problems. But there is also a problem of seasonality.

In the summer, the “waste” cold output air is often desirable, but may not be wanted at all in the winter. One could port the output cold air to another room or outside, but input air has to come from somewhere. If cold air is ported outside, that will just cause a vacuum and pull cold air into the house somewhere. And of course, heating water with ever colder air becomes less efficient with a heat pump.
 
Has anyone put their heat pump water heater in a partially enclosed room in basement to create a "cold storage room" for produce (and beer)? It's basically a 2 for 1, you get a cold room and hot water.
I read an article on combining a HPWH with a fridge, which does make some sense. I don’t remember the details.
 
I don't think that would work very well... the cooling would likely be too erratic to keep the temperature cool enough unless you had another source of cooling.... and then you're not letting the HPWH work to its best efficiency.
With a Rheem or other unit that is able to hook up ducts, you could keep a "cold room" as cold as possible by either locating the HPWH in the cold room and ducting in the intake air, or by locating the HPWH in another room and ducting the cold air into the "cold room". You'll need a vent w/damper located as high as possible in the "cold room" to exhaust the warm air. Minimum air temperature will be limited by the exhaust temperature of the HPWH. FWIW, my Rheem is pushing ~50F air out while sucking ~74F air in.

Good question. The touchscreen on the unit shows the firmware version in the menu tree, but I don’t think the unit has ever automatically updated this via the cloud or if newer firmware exists. I certainly have not received any notifications requesting permission to download or install any updates.
Mine is reporting Econet Wifi SW Version RH-WIFI-02-01-25 and WiFi Module SW Version 14.76.36.p126

Lots of folks leaving critical reviews at the Apple App Store. Guessing same on the Android side.
Yep. Only rated 2.5/5.0 stars.

They have a customer support email address. I sent them something a few months back about energy tracking but never heard back.
Ah, I see, [email protected]. I'll shoot them an email with some feedback.
 
Mine is reporting Econet Wifi SW Version RH-WIFI-02-01-25 and WiFi Module SW Version 14.76.36.p126
My EcoNet iPhone app reports WiFi Software Version RH-WIFI-00-01-35. I don't see the app or main unit touchscreen reporting a WiFi Module SW Version on my end. But the main unit touch screen reports Software Version Number: WH-HPW4-H2-01-10. A google search doesn't suggest anyone is getting updates besides the EcoNet app itself.
 
Google was a friend today.

Found a report where the cold room idea was tried in Guelph Canada.
http://www.sumaran.ca/sumaran-public-report-final.pdf

The HPWH is not ducted into the air circulation system, as in the first system, but enclosed in a closet in the basement cold room

This is quite a read, I'm only partially through it, but there are a lot of interesting technologies being used.

One of the items is the heat water drain recovery system, something I put in our home recently.
 
Thanks for posting. They didn’t seem to post any performance details of the scenario where they stuck the HPWH in a cold room, such as max summer or min winter temps to see if it would function as a year round cold storage room with sufficiently narrow temperature range. Who knows, maybe the basement room’s thermal inertia would keep that under reasonable control.

The first scenario seemed a better use of efficiencies:

The HPWH is connected to the damper-equipped return air plenum so the cool air it generates can be circulated throughout the house for cooling when needed.


The gravel bed idea under the garage also seemed pretty interesting with their attempt to temper cold air intake in the winter. That’s essentially ground-sourced-lite. Some comparative performance data would be telling.
 
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