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Tankless water heaters are terrible....

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Since there are no combustion products, no venting to the outside is required nor often desired with heat pump water heaters. In a hot room, like a garage in the summer, it is nice to have the cold air output to cool the space.

In the winter the problem is more challenging for livable spaces. A cold garage becomes colder, but that’s ok since no one lives in that space. Venting does not help, since porting out the cold air requires the same volume to ingress to the air intake from the path of least resistance outside the room. This ultimately means pulling cold air inside the space from outside the home.

Certainly if the air in the space it occupies is very cold, the heat pump runs least efficiently (ambient operating range 37-145° F) and if cold enough only works in resistive mode.

In terms of physical space occupied by the water heater, the smallest 50G is 61" tall x 22-1/4" wide and the largest 80G is 74" tall x 24-1/4" wide.


Piggy backing off the ASHP central heater and looks like winter temp low averages 13ºF (-10 to -11ºC) in Waterloo, Ontario. That’s some challenging ASHP “terrain”. If you can pull that off in your climate, that’s fantastic.

Supposing in the basement, an ASHP gets a bit of ground source heat sink benefit– nice.

Yes, please check back in when you have winter numbers!
The zuba is rated to operate without resistive heating down to -30C. Should be interesting.

I'm in the process of hooking up some power monitors to measure each appliance separately. I should have some nice data to inspect over the coming months.
 
Certainly if the air in the space it occupies is very cold, the heat pump runs least efficiently (ambient operating range 37-145° F) and if cold enough only works in resistive mode.
This is why I'm in "wait and see" mode regarding heat pump water heaters for our home. 37°F is not very cold and we'd be stuck with resistive heating much of the time.

In terms of physical space occupied by the water heater, the smallest 50G is 61" tall x 22-1/4" wide and the largest 80G is 74" tall x 24-1/4" wide.
Supposing in the basement, an ASHP gets a bit of ground source heat sink benefit– nice.
Space-wise, I think a heat pump water heater would work in the buildup underneath our rental. Hopefully, the ground sourced heat would be enough to keep the air temperature in the buildup from dropping too low as the water heater runs, but I don't know. I'd feel better if heat were drawn from the outdoor air, with the water tank kept in the buildup, but then we'd run into the problem of needing to use resistive heat with the current products.

At neither property is there a garage from which heat could be drawn. Even if we did have a garage, I wouldn't want to make it colder during winter!
 
Heat pumps are generally not the best source for house heat, if your living north of Maryland, and we'll say East of the Mississippi.
Form what I have been told a heat pump is not every effective below 35 F ( Air Based ). Given that there are water based heat pumps that claim to be effective taking 55F water and extract heat from the water they pump up to the unit. They may be effective if you do not need to lift water 400 feet to do so.

A straight gas fired tankless heater would be the best choice if all your doing is using it for showers. If you really want to get creative
pair a solar collector an 80 gal storage tank with a tankless heater and cut the fuel bill to creat hot water by another 50 to 60%.

You can reduce your heating cost by 75% if you wish to invest in a solar collector, radiant flooring and a control system that uses the best
heat source given the systems at hand. For the most part we in the USA only think of today and never think that we may live in our house
for 40 years. If I can't get my money back in three years I'm not interested seems to be the way we think. I often wonder why we purchase a Tesla for $100,000.00
 
They may be effective if you do not need to lift water 400 feet to do so.

Pedantic nerd warning: if the pipes are filled, you only have pumping losses, the depth of the loop is irrelevant.

I often wonder why we purchase a Tesla for $100,000.00

You can live in your Tesla, but you can't drive a house to work.
 
Heat pumps are generally not the best source for house heat, if your living north of Maryland, and we'll say East of the Mississippi.

We really need to be moving away from fools fuels like natural gas as much as possible. Even Maine has a summer so you’d probably have an average COP of ~2 with an ASHP even up there.

If you want max efficiency Sanden makes a CO2 based heat pump that works down to -15F.

PLUS there’s the storage factor. Wind curtailment is becoming more and more common in the early morning winter hours. Why not use DR to dump that into electric water heaters? Even if the COP is 1 because it’s cold that’s still free energy.

To some extent I think the storage argument is the strongest reason for a tanked water heater. I’ve been trying to think of a way to incorporate a phase change material like paraffin to enhance the thermal storage capacity. It’s a cheap battery.
 
PLUS there’s the storage factor. Wind curtailment is becoming more and more common in the early morning winter hours. Why not use DR to dump that into electric water heaters? Even if the COP is 1 because it’s cold that’s still free energy.

To some extent I think the storage argument is the strongest reason for a tanked water heater.
Between EV and stored hot water there is massive energy sink potential to match demand to supply.

The (fairly crappy) argument behind tankless hot water is the problem of hot water that has cooled off in the pipes after sitting for a while. For that we have insulation.
 
At what capacity (power) ?
This is the closest I could find to providing the info you requested:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/greenbuild...bishi-Zuba-Central-3-Ton-Performace-Specs.pdf

So at -30C (-22F):
Input power: 6.18kW
COP: 1.26
Heating capacity: 26500 BTU

Edit: I'm confused by their two tables. One says max heating performance and the other in minimum. The above data was from their MAX table. From the MIN table they say:
-30C (-22F):
Input power: 1.81 kW
COP: 2.01
Heating capacity: 12400 BTU

Oh... so if it's running with max input power vs minimum input power!
 
Last edited:
This is the closest I could find to providing the info you requested:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/greenbuild...bishi-Zuba-Central-3-Ton-Performace-Specs.pdf

So at -30C (-22F):
Input power: 6.18kW
COP: 1.26
Heating capacity: 26500 BTU

Edit: I'm confused by their two tables. One says max heating performance and the other in minimum. The above data was from their MAX table. From the MIN table they say:
-30C (-22F):
Input power: 1.81 kW
COP: 2.01
Heating capacity: 12400 BTU

Oh... so if it's running with max input power vs minimum input power!
Yep.
Thanks for tracking down this information -- interesting !

A COP of 1.2 is not much different that straight resistance heating but a COP of 2.0 is pretty darned good at that temperature. The problem (and irony) of heat pump use is that as it gets colder we use more heat ... and the COP drops. Such is the life in the heat pump lane. I plan to outfit my home with heat pumps in the next month or so and I am a total fan of them but perfect they are not and the use profile makes a huge difference in efficiency. Slow and steady is much better than intermittent high power

As an aside, I've read before that COP performance may or may not include electricity used to melt ice off the condenser.
 
Centrica to use customers' hot water tanks to stop blackouts

Centrica to use customers' hot water tanks to stop blackouts

Centrica, the owner of British Gas, plans to use its customers’ hot water tanks to create a virtual power plant which could help National Grid prevent future blackouts.

The UK’s biggest energy supplier hopes to harness household gadgets with energy capacity equivalent to a large power plant by 2025. The plan could help to balance the energy system without any perceptible impact for British households.
 
Centrica to use customers' hot water tanks to stop blackouts

Centrica to use customers' hot water tanks to stop blackouts

Centrica, the owner of British Gas, plans to use its customers’ hot water tanks to create a virtual power plant which could help National Grid prevent future blackouts.

The UK’s biggest energy supplier hopes to harness household gadgets with energy capacity equivalent to a large power plant by 2025. The plan could help to balance the energy system without any perceptible impact for British households.
Isn't that just smart time of use detection/ control? It's not like they are pulling heat from the tanks to power the grid.
 
In Demand Management, decreasing or avoiding consumption is effectively the same as adding generation. Soaking up excess by increasing load is sometimes just as useful.

Yeah, I get that. But these only function as a virtual load, they have no power generating capability.

Remotely controlled water tanks and AC units are already a thing for grid load shed/ preventing blackouts. And then only blackouts due to overconsumption. This system can't do anything about loss of power lines whereas Powerwall/ Powerpack/ Megapack/ solar can create a true virtual power plant.
 
Is this happening in US on any significant scale with residential, commercial, or industrial water heating? Not seeing that.

Grid demand is very predictable within hours and days intervals based on weather. Pulling water heating forward ahead of expected demand, absorbing spare capacity at lower demand times, and sparing peak forecast demand hours later is the most affordable solution.

No problems with battery grid storage and that is part of the solution, but this is cheaper “lower hanging fruit” and also truly reduces the need to install additional generating capacity.
 
Water tank heat as surplus storage is a really interesting concept that I'd never considered. Thanks to all for discussing in the last page or two. I am curious if anyone has done any kind of "smart" tweaking to their system in order to take advantage of heavy usage times/surplus generation times. I spent a little time checking out the Rheem connected options to see if anyone has poked into their API. A few appear to have done so, and I bet I could write a plugin for my home automation software. That would allow me to create rules around when to preload the heater.

I have a couple of thermostatically controlled fixtures in my house - namely the two showers. Water control requires me to push in an override to exceed 100°F at the shower head. I'm guessing that there is some risk to making household water overly hot, since most fixtures do not have this kind of thermal protection.
 
Water tank heat as surplus storage is a really interesting concept that I'd never considered. Thanks to all for discussing in the last page or two. I am curious if anyone has done any kind of "smart" tweaking to their system in order to take advantage of heavy usage times/surplus generation times. I spent a little time checking out the Rheem connected options to see if anyone has poked into their API. A few appear to have done so, and I bet I could write a plugin for my home automation software. That would allow me to create rules around when to preload the heater.

I have a couple of thermostatically controlled fixtures in my house - namely the two showers. Water control requires me to push in an override to exceed 100°F at the shower head. I'm guessing that there is some risk to making household water overly hot, since most fixtures do not have this kind of thermal protection.
You can add a blender valve to keep the water temperature at a safe level.
I had one on my old gas boiler so I could keep it at a higher temp for the hydronic heat and also have hot water.
My new heat pump has separate tanks.
 
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Reactions: Dave EV and ohmman
Water tank heat as surplus storage is a really interesting concept that I'd never considered. Thanks to all for discussing in the last page or two. I am curious if anyone has done any kind of "smart" tweaking to their system in order to take advantage of heavy usage times/surplus generation times. I spent a little time checking out the Rheem connected options to see if anyone has poked into their API. A few appear to have done so, and I bet I could write a plugin for my home automation software. That would allow me to create rules around when to preload the heater.

I have a couple of thermostatically controlled fixtures in my house - namely the two showers. Water control requires me to push in an override to exceed 100°F at the shower head. I'm guessing that there is some risk to making household water overly hot, since most fixtures do not have this kind of thermal protection.
Random googled data:
Water heaters must be less than 140 F per IPC, can be higher if approved mixing valve is installed on output.
120 F is considered the limit for scald protection.
110 F is ADA/ child safer.
 
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Reactions: Dr. J