Tax credit ≠ subsidy

[telero]

I am a bit confused as to the 200K number for tax rebate...is it 200K total sales by a EV car maker or 200K sales in a calender year per EV car maker? Thanks for clarifying

200K US sales by a manufacturer. Then the phaseout for that manufacturer begins.

 

[JeffK]

I am a bit confused as to the 200K number for tax rebate...is it 200K total sales by a EV car maker or 200K sales in a calender year per EV car maker? Thanks for clarifying

There's an entire thread about it. The tax rebate begins tapering off after the 200,000 delivery per manufacturer within the US. It tapers off over the course of that quarter and the next four quarters after that. The schedule is avail on other threads.

 

[EaglesPDX]

I'm not sure what your income is, but I can guarantee you I have NEVER voted to pay $35,000 in tax per year. I'll bet if you excluded the 49% of Americans who pay ZERO income tax and let the rest of us vote, you would see some changes happen in short order.

Yikes...too much Fox News or Mitt Romney luncheons. US work force participation is near all time high of 62.4% of population. You may mean income tax but everyone, even those on Social Security disability pay sales taxes, property taxes directly or via rent etc. And since income has shifted so that the top 10% have 46% of the income. Yes we do pay 65% of the INCOME taxes but only 42% of all taxes. We stop paying SS taxes on our income over $120K while the bottom 90% pay 100% of the SS tax and that is not counted in the "65% of income tax" which, if counted would reduce it to 58% of INCOME taxes.

US is one of the lowest tax nations among liberal Western democratic advanced economies, around 25th. The low taxes mean we have 37th ranked health care system that costs twice as much and public education system that ranks 25th. Add in, since this is a car place, poorer road system and poorer mass transit systems.

I also hate the phrase that "Taxes are the price of civilization" That is such a load of crap, and the same thing tyrants have been telling the sheeple since the days of Rome (and before)

Well Rome, like the US, was founded as Republic and US Constitution was created by the founders so we had a strong national, Federal government with POWER TO TAX. US revolution was not about no taxes but about representation to determine the taxes. One of Washington's first acts as President was to lead the Federal militia to put down a tax revolt. I'd suggest a read of Chernow's "Hamilton", topical and fun with "Hamilton" the big show on Broadway.

100% of the money I earn belongs to me. Period, end of story. The government takes what they want from me and I either choose to comply, or I'm put in a cage. Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%

See civilization note above. Don't think you'll find your utopia in any human society. Societies don't exist without government, government's don't exist without taxes...ergo the basic truth of taxes being the price of civilization. Tesla for example was founded on Federal government tax loans, regulatory policy that required EV's, tax policy that subsidies EV's...all good works to good effect for common good.

Now that this has gone political I think it's probably time to retire this thread.

Thread is about EV Federal tax subsidy which is entirely political. We voted to have it because it is good use of tax dollars for common good in national interest. We should vote to increase the EV subsidy to $10K, make it an earned income tax credit so even if one had less than $10K in taxes, the credit would pay to the EV buyer in first year to help buy an EV. We need to convert 11 million cars to EV's in 10 years. Government tax policy is a good way to do it as Tesla demonstrates.

 

[Swampgator]

Eagles,

You are so ignorant of the actual facts as to not be worth much of my time trying to enlighten you.
Do you even know that an income tax was illegal under the Founding constitution? We had to amend the constitution to allow it (16th amendment)

Also, here is the labor participation rate directly from BLS. Not sure where you got your incorrect data but this is a downward trend and is not directly correlated with income tax payment. You can have a low paying job and still not pay NET income taxes.

Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
2006 66.0 66.1 66.2 66.1 66.1 66.2 66.1 66.2 66.1 66.2 66.3 66.4
2007 66.4 66.3 66.2 65.9 66.0 66.0 66.0 65.8 66.0 65.8 66.0 66.0
2008 66.2 66.0 66.1 65.9 66.1 66.1 66.1 66.1 66.0 66.0 65.9 65.8
2009 65.7 65.8 65.6 65.7 65.7 65.7 65.5 65.4 65.1 65.0 65.0 64.6
2010 64.8 64.9 64.9 65.2 64.9 64.6 64.6 64.7 64.6 64.4 64.6 64.3
2011 64.2 64.1 64.2 64.2 64.1 64.0 64.0 64.1 64.2 64.1 64.1 64.0
2012 63.7 63.8 63.8 63.7 63.7 63.8 63.7 63.5 63.7 63.8 63.6 63.7
2013 63.6 63.4 63.3 63.4 63.4 63.4 63.3 63.2 63.3 62.8 63.0 62.9
2014 62.9 63.0 63.2 62.8 62.8 62.8 62.9 62.9 62.8 62.9 62.9 62.7
2015 62.9 62.8 62.7 62.7 62.8 62.6 62.6 62.6 62.4 62.5 62.5 62.6
2016 62.7 62.9 63.0 62.8 62.6 62.7

And no, I don't watch Fox news and do not like Mitt Romney.

 

[jelloslug]

Eagles,

You are so ignorant of the actual facts as to not be worth much of my time trying to enlighten you.
Do you even know that an income tax was illegal under the Founding constitution? We had to amend the constitution to allow it (16th amendment)

Also, here is the labor participation rate directly from BLS. Not sure where you got your incorrect data but this is a downward trend and is not directly correlated with income tax payment. You can have a low paying job and still not pay NET income taxes.

Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
2006 66.0 66.1 66.2 66.1 66.1 66.2 66.1 66.2 66.1 66.2 66.3 66.4
2007 66.4 66.3 66.2 65.9 66.0 66.0 66.0 65.8 66.0 65.8 66.0 66.0
2008 66.2 66.0 66.1 65.9 66.1 66.1 66.1 66.1 66.0 66.0 65.9 65.8
2009 65.7 65.8 65.6 65.7 65.7 65.7 65.5 65.4 65.1 65.0 65.0 64.6
2010 64.8 64.9 64.9 65.2 64.9 64.6 64.6 64.7 64.6 64.4 64.6 64.3
2011 64.2 64.1 64.2 64.2 64.1 64.0 64.0 64.1 64.2 64.1 64.1 64.0
2012 63.7 63.8 63.8 63.7 63.7 63.8 63.7 63.5 63.7 63.8 63.6 63.7
2013 63.6 63.4 63.3 63.4 63.4 63.4 63.3 63.2 63.3 62.8 63.0 62.9
2014 62.9 63.0 63.2 62.8 62.8 62.8 62.9 62.9 62.8 62.9 62.9 62.7
2015 62.9 62.8 62.7 62.7 62.8 62.6 62.6 62.6 62.4 62.5 62.5 62.6
2016 62.7 62.9 63.0 62.8 62.6 62.7

And no, I don't watch Fox news and do not like Mitt Romney.

Those rates don't take in cosideration the retiring baby boomers.

 

[EaglesPDX]

Do you even know that an income tax was illegal under the Founding constitution? We had to amend the constitution to allow it (16th amendment)

Chuckle...not "illegal" simply not authorized by Constitution though a modern Supreme Court might have decided otherwise. Nonetheless...we voted to authorize an income tax. Not sure what your point is, prior to that we had excise (the basis for the Whiskey Rebellion that Washington put down with Federalized militia can you imagine Fox News reporting on THAT?) and other taxes to finance the good works of the government.

US Constitution was about creating strong Federal government with power to tax. Many people who rant about US Constitution today are unaware of actual US history that our liberal founding fathers were for a strong central government with taxing power.

Not sure where you got your incorrect data but this is a downward trend and is not directly correlated with income tax payment.

You keep focusing on US Federal Income tax there are many other taxes US citizens pays...but take heart...US is still one of the lowest income tax and total tax nations among advanced economies in the world. Though we should probably raise taxes so our health care system and public education systems are tops in the world vs. 27th and 24th respectively.

Now back to the Federal tax credit for EV's to subsidize EV industry to lower US oil use and upgrade US economy to high tech sustainable energy mfg. A great use of tax dollars. I'll still buy my T3 even if the current tax subsidy is gone or I can't use it because my solar power tax subsidy ($12K) has reduced by Federal income tax to zero. Solar power and EV's, two excellent Federal tax subsidies.

 

[EaglesPDX]

Those rates don't take in cosideration the retiring baby boomers.

They do actually. People who retire are considered out of the labor force though many who lost their retirement savings and homes, the main retirement asset of most Americans, are forced to continue to work. The recent uptick in labor force participation is based on the trend from the Great Recession to now. US employment was the hardest hit and the slowest to recover.

Nate Silver, the wizard of stats explains it well here.

Americans Are Finally Returning To The Workforce

But back to the Federal tax subsidy for Teslas or more correctly for EV's in general. It is an election year and representation for taxation is what US was founded upon. I would like to see our elected reps INCREASE the Federal tax subsidy and extend it until we have 60% of cars/light trucks as EV's and US is no longer importing oil or burning oil and increasing global warming.

 

[ucmndd]

Well at least now I know why you're trying so desperately hard to convince yourself you're not taking a subsidy. I can only imagine the cognitive dissonance that must cause in such a principled freedom crusader's mind!

 

[Swampgator]

Eagle,

Please do not assume that I am one of the "many" who are unaware of US history. In fact I have read all of the federalist/anti-federalist papers and also Rothbards (a TRUE liberal) exhaustive catalog of the nations founding "conceived in Liberty" And many, many of the original sources of material.
And our "liberal" founding fathers were actually terrified of a strong central government, with the notable exception of Hamilton.
Jefferson for example stated " I am not a friend to a very energetic government" Do a google search for Patrick Henry's thoughts. Or John Adams. (although he did get a little power crazy once he became president)

I do think it's kinda cool that Tesla and EVs in general bring together many different sets of people.
I for one do not agree that AGW is a crisis. I'm sure Eagle considers me a heretic for that.
One thing we both agree about is that Tesla makes some awesome cars, and that EV's are the future.

 

[dsvick]

I am a bit confused as to the 200K number for tax rebate...is it 200K total sales by a EV car maker or 200K sales in a calender year per EV car maker? Thanks for clarifying

The 200,000 limit is the number qualifying cars sold (in the US) by a manufacturer. That is "total" vehicles, not in single calendar year, but over all time, actually I think since 2008 or 2009, but close enough to all time. Check out the IRS page, Plug-In Electric Drive Vehicle Credit (IRC 30D) for more details.

 

[EaglesPDX]

And our "liberal" founding fathers were actually terrified of a strong central government, with the notable exception of Hamilton.

Well Washington, his cabinet which included Jefferson, and Hamilton his Sec. of Treasury who built the Federal system based on strong central government to replace the weak Confederation. All the founders signed off on the Constitutional strong central government and its ability to tax and for Washington's eight years in office, the members of Congress voted for the construction of the strong Federal government the Constitution was meant to create.

The main issue was the ability of the Federal government to tax vs depend on states to support it, an issue the Constitution was meant to address and an issue settled when Washington raised the Federal militia and put down the tax revolt.

That is related to this issue of Federal government using tax money via the EV Federal Tax Credit to subsidize our purchase of EV's. It is tax money that the Federal government is giving us, tax money otherwise used for other purposes. We are "welfare queens" as much as Exxon and it's subsidies as much as families getting SNAP and TANF assistance.

As to why EV's, unless there is man made global warming, dangerous levels of air and water pollution from oil use, oil wars, oil based terrorism and costly oil trade deficits, no particular reason for EV's nor government to support EV's with tax dollars in the form of loans and subsidies and with regulations. Without those reasons, a tax subsidy for EV's would make as much sense as a tax subsidy for a Mustang GT. All legislation, regulatory and tax, to support EV's is based on environmental and climate science telling us it is imperative.
It is why Musk started Tesla, Solar City and SpaceX.