Plasmid_Boy
Member
No reason why the issue can’t be both, I think. It does appear to be both at the moment in that people have managed to make a pure scientific issue a political one. But it is certainly not a hoax.
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Tax credit (Green ACT)
- Thread starter sam2020
- Start date
Plasmid_Boy
Member
We are planning to add a third Tesla (LR MY), so it would be nice to get a tax break by then.
Plasmid_Boy
Member
Chuck Schumer Has An Audacious Electric Car Proposal - CleanTechnica
Sign up for daily news updates from CleanTechnica on email. Or follow us on Google News! Elections have consequences. Just ... [continued]
cleantechnica.com
This sounds more substantial.
Mrbrock
Active Member
Um, the comments about trading in a gasoline car were from a 2019 interview. Not a 2021 proposed bill. If he copies his comments from 2019 then those would hold true but it has likely changed since many more people have hands out or hands in his pockets now.
Plasmid_Boy
Member
Yeah, this is different than the bill proposed by the House. This will be apart of the infrastructure bill (or planned to be according to the article). The 2019 stuff seems to have been added by the writer of the story in an effort to gain more insights into the potential bill. Whether or not we agree with the method, it is a way to incentivize EV buying, I think.
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TravelFree
Active Member
I still favor the SenateElectric CARS Act of 2021 but I'll look forward to reading what Schumer actually proposes in the infrastructure bill as this could get bipartisan vote as early as August. The bigger the bill the longer the debates.
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Some perspective might be gained by watching some of Dr, John Robson's videos on YouTube.
Schumer's plan is just plain impractical. Basing his program on trade-ins will create a huge mess in the ICE used car market making them cheaper unless scrapped, but who's going to pay for those cars that are destroyed? A simple purchase incentive is enough, and if the incentive is to work it has to apply to all manufacturers. If he want's to favor American built cars, just make that incentive larger.
A date limit on manufacturing ICE cars is fine, but it must be practical. He can't make batteries out of thin air. Also making legally purchased ICE cars illegal to drive at a certain point without compensation is likely a violation of the Fifth Amendment.
I'm going to get a lot of flack for recommending this, but there is a more efficient way to promote EVs than giving rich people free money IMO. Yes I know not all people who buy teslas are rich, but I can definitely say most poorer people can't afford a tesla. Just look at the cheapest model 3. $37K + license, registration, etc. You are looking at a $40k+ sedan. This is why someone who have limited money would buy a camry or accord over a tesla or any other EVs.
Congress shouldn't be doing tax credit if they are after EV adoption. Instead just give the manufacture the money for every car they sell. Hopefully this promotes the car companies to lower their prices. And for the ones that don't well a free market should weed them out right? That is what the republican is all about. Also this helps consumer if the car manufacture actually lowers the price. No need to wait for credit at the end of the year. Or worrying if I paid enough taxes to get that back. Like what CA is doing. Cut the middle man. Direct money to the dealers who sell EV cars. Tax credit IMO, is terribly inefficient and really penalizes the poor. IRS has to check for those individual cheaters verse just checking a few manufacturers' taxes. It would save money for the government also.. But I guess the system is setup against the poor and ALL politicians on both sides are against the poor despite what they say. It is all about filling their pockets with greens. No pun intended.
Congress shouldn't be doing tax credit if they are after EV adoption. Instead just give the manufacture the money for every car they sell. Hopefully this promotes the car companies to lower their prices. And for the ones that don't well a free market should weed them out right? That is what the republican is all about. Also this helps consumer if the car manufacture actually lowers the price. No need to wait for credit at the end of the year. Or worrying if I paid enough taxes to get that back. Like what CA is doing. Cut the middle man. Direct money to the dealers who sell EV cars. Tax credit IMO, is terribly inefficient and really penalizes the poor. IRS has to check for those individual cheaters verse just checking a few manufacturers' taxes. It would save money for the government also.. But I guess the system is setup against the poor and ALL politicians on both sides are against the poor despite what they say. It is all about filling their pockets with greens. No pun intended.
Flybuddy
Member
If you really want to promote EVs, a government rebate (as oppossed to tax credit) for EVs only priced below 27K. That will incentivise car companies to shoot for that goal and open up a MUCH wider market.
Completely agree on the limits on only EV at lower price. But yes still prefer the government pays the car manufacture directly vs giving it to the consumer via tax credit. It will definitely get more lower income people into EVs.
Plasmid_Boy
Member
Yeah, way outside my area of expertise so I will defer to the expert policymakers and economists on how best to incentivize more EV adoption. As to Dr. John Robson, I looked him up. He refers to himself as “Dr” because he has got a PhD in American history from UT Texas, fine. I listened to a couple YouTube video made/produced by him. All nonsense to me. I am a “Dr” too (and my students, postdocs, and staff call me that), but my PhD is in science and I have not found anything from him worth listening to. Nothing against him, in fact there is some affinity as we are both Canadians, but when it comes to science, the guy is speaking non-sense.
I get where you're coming from but have you ever been near a military base? Or know anyone in the military? When I was in I knew plenty of E-3 ranked enlisted folks getting paid (1500-1600/month) going out and buying $60,000 trucks right off the lot after getting out of training. I still see this with friends buying Audi's on relatively low incomes...
Tesla's are expensive, and as someone who could benefit from the tax credit I do hear you, I also disagree. You want cheaper cars in the market? Well that also requires an actual used market to also support the new car market. With the new S and X coming have you looked at the price drops? What if they re-do the 3 or Y at some point?
There's a consensus:
Scientific Consensus - NASA Science
It’s important to remember that scientists always focus on the evidence, not on opinions. Scientific evidence continues to show that human activities (primarily the human burning of fossil fuels) have warmed Earth’s surface and its ocean basins, which in turn have continued to impact Earth’s...
climate.nasa.gov
Even the scientists for the big petroleum companies recognize anthropogenic climate change:
In court, Big Oil rejected climate denial | Dana Nuccitelli
Dana Nuccitelli: If even oil companies accept human-caused global warming, why doesn’t everybody?
www.theguardian.com
Let's please move on. It's time to solve the problem.
I think your view of the military world is skewed. Sure those guys make little compared to the tech guys but have you asked if they actually have the cash or is it a loan? There are many reasons why they are driving expensive vehicles. One is they might have the cash. They might have reliable income, or heck they might be only leasing. You don't know just by looking at the cars parked in military bases. And no I will not be baited into saying the military guys lack financial acumen. If you come up with that conclusion yourself, you can say it yourself.
I am not following what used market have to do with lower cost new cars? Do you mean the manufacture should keep prices high just to support used car market? If this is your perspective, I think you need to rethink your view of the world. I'll leave it as that.
Also are you recommending people look at used EV because they are cheaper? There are a lot of problems with that recommendation. Used EV have their fair shares of issues. Just look at the thread on how much it cost to replace a Model S/X battery pack out of warranty. Used EV will typically not have warranty and will cost their owner more down the road.
Look my point is since the Democrats are in control of Congress, we all know they will pass some type EV promotion bill. I am not contending with whether they should or should not promote EVs through some bill. What I contend is HOW they are going about to doing it. Tax credit only benefits people who actually pay that much in taxes and we all know the lower income guys don't pay that much taxes. Also ALL customer have to wait after they file their taxes at the beginning of their next year to get the money unless you make enough in salary and smart enough to reduce your withholding to match the credit next year. Also if it is given directly to the manufacture instead of people, there will be less "cheaters" who false file they bought EVs so IRS load is less. There was a report from the IRS on how there are many people who file either knowingly or unknowingly the tax credit. So in a sense everyone wins. Customer with lower cost EVs if the manufacture lower the cost instead of waiting for the money at the end. Government with saving in less IRS oversight cost and losses from tax cheaters. And the manufacture because they will get the money directly for each cars they sell vs trying to get people to buy their cars with advertisements of the tax credit which not all customer qualifies for. Win win for everyone.
TravelFree
Active Member
If you want to have credibility among real scientists who follow the scientific method as defined by Sir Francis Bacon, then you never test an argument with a popularity contest aka a "consensus." You never claim the "science is settled so move on."
In science, a consensus proves nothing. I don't deny it is the popular thing to say to avoid a debate of the data.
Save your consensus for politics and beauty contests.
Now having said that you can buy an EV like a Tesla for whatever reason you want to believe. It's your choice and I won't argue with that unless your reason is harmful or in error and you don't know it yet. But never assume everyone who doesn't follow the consensus is wrong and buying an EV for the wrong reason because they don't believe it will end the changes in the climate on the planet.
TravelFree
Active Member
Here is an update on the EV Tax Credit bill that is gaining popularity that was introduced by Sen Merkley of Oregon.
www.merkley.senate.gov
Merkley, Welch Introduce Bicameral Legislation to Accelerate Growing Adoption of Electric Vehicles - Merkley
Washington, D.C. – Oregon’s Senator Jeff Merkley and Congressman Peter Welch (D-VT) teamed up today to introduce the Electric Cars Act, bicameral legislation that would address America’s addiction to dangerous fossil fuels by fully extending the electric vehicle tax credit for 10 years and...
www.merkley.senate.gov
Plasmid_Boy
Member
@TravelFree I believe that you might have misunderstood science and the meaning of consensus amongst scientists; perhaps that's why you had little faith in consensus. Consensus usually occurs after different lines of experimental data overwhelmingly point to the same conclusion. A consensus amongst scientists is as close to a fact as it gets in science. So If there is a consensus amongst scientists on climate change, it means that there is no credible data to the contrary and no real scientist would argue against it unless they bring new data to support (which I have done several times myself - going against the consensus with extraordinary data that my lab had gathered). So, yeah, it is a high bar to reach a consensus.In science, a consensus proves nothing. I don't deny it is the popular thing to say to avoid a debate of the data.
Save your consensus for politics and beauty contests.
Now having said that you can buy an EV like a Tesla for whatever reason you want to believe. It's your choice and I won't argue with that unless your reason is harmful or in error and you don't know it yet. But never assume everyone who doesn't follow the consensus is wrong and buying an EV for the wrong reason because they don't believe it will end the changes in the climate on the planet.
Plenty of people could/should by used EVs too or get a deal on a Leaf or Kona that still qualifies for tax credits. Problem people WANT the latest iPhone Max vs. the Alcatel xyz... Both make calls. Except scale that problem to $20K vs. $50K. Lots of people getting in over their heads trying to get into an expensive car that happens to be a Tesla.
Plasmid_Boy
Member
We might hear more about the infrastructure bill and its timeline next week.
www.reuters.com
Biden to unveil multitrillion-dollar infrastructure plan in Pittsburgh next week
U.S. President Joe Biden next week will travel to Pittsburgh, where he kicked off his presidential campaign in 2019, to unveil a multitrillion-dollar plan to rebuild America's infrastructure, choosing a backdrop of an American city with a long union history.
www.reuters.com
Plasmid_Boy
Member
Hmmm... I am a little confused by what you said. I don’t doubt what you said, but it is confusing and surprising to me. What you said is not how science works and not how scientific publications are selected and published. You see, the people who ‘select’ which data to publish are working scientists in the field, they are experts in the field to ensure rigor, not by a cabal of people trying to shape a narrative. I know because I am a reviewer for publications in my field, and I am an editor for two international scientific journals. What you described might exist, but I have not seen it, nor am I aware of its existence. Maybe you were referring to data published without having been peer-reviewed. If the case, one can not trust them, in my opinion. I don’t mean any offense here, there is no reason for me to do that, I am just hoping to be helpful.
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