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Taxpayers received $74 million in questionable EV tax credits says Treasury Dept.

Dr. J

Active Member
Aug 23, 2017
1,473
2,687
Fort Worth, Texas
I won't do this personally because I don't want to pay later with interest if I get caught.
First, I applaud you for your honesty. But be aware, there would be a lot more due than just interest--penalties (definitely), and possibly (but unlikely) criminal prosecution if it was determined to be willful.
 

sperkin

Member
Mar 23, 2017
826
823
Los Angeles, CA
You meant to say when he did his taxes....amirite?

You are right. When he did his taxes. He did it at the H&R Block office, and I found out afterwards when he was telling others how good the deal was on his Model S after all the incentives.

Tesla lease is like 40% of MSRP after incentives so they take that off the top to lower the lease. Then he took another $7,500 from Feds and $2,500 from CA. So he doubled dipped and got away twice.
 
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Whitehawk

Member
May 3, 2019
113
100
Wichita, Ks
I'm just stating what happened, and I don't care what happens to him. Not my car and not my tax return. This was his Model S and he did it twice already (one previous owned and one on his new one after turning that in). This is probably what this article found too. Both the owner and leasing company are filing for the incentive and there's no system to double check or some falls through the crack.

I won't do this personally because I don't want to pay later with interest if I get caught. Just saying some people just don't care.[/QUOTE

I do care - it’s called fraud when people intentionally double dip. It’s also a felony. I certainly believe we’re overtaxed, but this type of behavior creates hassles for the rest of us....
 

vickh

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
3,097
480
az
You are right. When he did his taxes. He did it at the H&R Block office, and I found out afterwards when he was telling others how good the deal was on his Model S after all the incentives.

Tesla lease is like 40% of MSRP after incentives so they take that off the top to lower the lease. Then he took another $7,500 from Feds and $2,500 from CA. So he doubled dipped and got away twice.


Wow that gets the S in 3 price range. Someone/you should report him and get whistleblower $$?

How he filed is immaterial. People think CPAs are liable, generally they're not. It's your signature on the return. They're responsible for errors, not lying
 
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SageBrush

REJECT Fascism
May 7, 2015
12,252
15,180
New Mexico
Heh.
The IRS and I are fighting over my EV tax credit from 2018. The problem seems to be that they lost the documentation.

Increased oversight by the IRS is a double-edged sword due to their overwhelming incompetence.
 

BrokerDon

Active Member
Aug 23, 2014
1,399
1,289
Newport Coast, CA
This could be part of an effort to harass EVs owners (and potential owners). Wouldn't put it past our current administration's war on EVs and the environment to start this campaign.

Actually the IRS should go after the $12 BILLION lost in fraudulent tax refund claims via identity theft: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/10/19/thieves-targeted-billion-through-irs-tax-fraud/

However they aren't aggressively pursuing this since it is "Politically Incorrect" to go after these thieves... including illegal immigrants How legal immigrants can claim U.S. tax credits

ALL our governments (federal, state and local) need is to spend our tax dollars frugally like most of us taxpayers do... NOT continue to raise taxes.
 

cpa

Active Member
May 17, 2014
3,064
3,814
Central Valley
I don't know offhand the precise number. But the IRS received about 140 million individual tax returns for the 2016 tax year. Perhaps more. In addition, they also received partnership returns, C corporation returns, S corporation returns, and fiduciary returns. Total returns exceeded 200 million. (This does not include excise tax returns, estate returns, and gift tax returns.)

There is no way that any business or governmental agency would be able to audit physically more than a handful of these returns. Instead, they turn to computer matching for obvious omissions or errors. That is why we receive all those forms 1099, 1098, and a handful of others. Those information returns can easily be matched to what we report when we file. If there are significant discrepancies, the Service sends one of a couple of notices to the taxpayer asking for additional tax due or an explanation why we do not owe the tax. In retrospect, it would have been real easy to add an information return to the existing menu and have all EV dealers complete the form upon purchase to submit for matching verification when we file. I suspect that with the 1962-era computers that the Services uses and abuses, this might have become too costly to justify the expense from their budget.

The vast majority of taxpayers have simple returns to prepare. The vast majority of taxpayers do not have a large Schedule C or F. Nor do they have ownership stakes in lots of partnerships and S Corporations where the arcane rules of at-risk, basis, and active or passive activities come into play. Similarly, most taxpayers do not earn the majority of their living from rental real estate. The Service focuses their scant audit resources on returns like these where it will get the most bang for their buck, because the giant computer behind the curtain will kick out mismatched sources of income and deduction for the cost of paper, envelope, and postage.

The replies to these notices are screened and processed by lower paid clerical workers who merely follow their procedural manual. Difficult points of law, or questionable replies are kicked over to audit for final in-house resolution.

I am not defending the Service. I am merely pointing out that it has a lot on its plate, is understaffed and underfunded, and run by bureaucrats who pick and choose how to focus their enforcement efforts.
 

mspohr

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2014
9,255
10,783
California
I don't know offhand the precise number. But the IRS received about 140 million individual tax returns for the 2016 tax year. Perhaps more. In addition, they also received partnership returns, C corporation returns, S corporation returns, and fiduciary returns. Total returns exceeded 200 million. (This does not include excise tax returns, estate returns, and gift tax returns.)

There is no way that any business or governmental agency would be able to audit physically more than a handful of these returns. Instead, they turn to computer matching for obvious omissions or errors. That is why we receive all those forms 1099, 1098, and a handful of others. Those information returns can easily be matched to what we report when we file. If there are significant discrepancies, the Service sends one of a couple of notices to the taxpayer asking for additional tax due or an explanation why we do not owe the tax. In retrospect, it would have been real easy to add an information return to the existing menu and have all EV dealers complete the form upon purchase to submit for matching verification when we file. I suspect that with the 1962-era computers that the Services uses and abuses, this might have become too costly to justify the expense from their budget.

The vast majority of taxpayers have simple returns to prepare. The vast majority of taxpayers do not have a large Schedule C or F. Nor do they have ownership stakes in lots of partnerships and S Corporations where the arcane rules of at-risk, basis, and active or passive activities come into play. Similarly, most taxpayers do not earn the majority of their living from rental real estate. The Service focuses their scant audit resources on returns like these where it will get the most bang for their buck, because the giant computer behind the curtain will kick out mismatched sources of income and deduction for the cost of paper, envelope, and postage.

The replies to these notices are screened and processed by lower paid clerical workers who merely follow their procedural manual. Difficult points of law, or questionable replies are kicked over to audit for final in-house resolution.

I am not defending the Service. I am merely pointing out that it has a lot on its plate, is understaffed and underfunded, and run by bureaucrats who pick and choose how to focus their enforcement efforts.
Our tax system has always relied on voluntary compliance with random and targeted audits. Most people are honest.
 

cpa

Active Member
May 17, 2014
3,064
3,814
Central Valley
Our tax system has always relied on voluntary compliance with random and targeted audits. Most people are honest.

Most people are mostly honest.

They overstate their automobile expenses by a couple of hundred dollars to save a few bucks.
They overstate their cash donations by a couple of hundred dollars to save a few bucks.
They do not file the dread "nanny tax" returns for their household employee that earns $250/month cleaning their house so their housekeeper does not have a visible filing requirement, and the taxpayer avoids paying into Social Security and unemployment insurance.
They have a family cell phone plan for their business, and they do not carve out the cost for their spouse and two kids.

But yeah, my experience is that we comply pretty well--but we could do a little better!
 
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Dr. J

Active Member
Aug 23, 2017
1,473
2,687
Fort Worth, Texas
However they aren't aggressively pursuing this since it is "Politically Incorrect" to go after these thieves... including illegal immigrants How legal immigrants can claim U.S. tax credits
If you read what you wrote, you will see that the article selected doesn't support the position you've taken. A Google search for illegal immigrants and taxes will provide a variety of views about the costs of illegal immigration and taxes paid by illegal immigrants.
 
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BrokerDon

Active Member
Aug 23, 2014
1,399
1,289
Newport Coast, CA
If you read what you wrote, you will see that the article selected doesn't support the position you've taken. A Google search for illegal immigrants and taxes will provide a variety of views about the costs of illegal immigration and taxes paid by illegal immigrants.

You're correct. My apologies for attaching the wrong URL.

Better article from FactCheck.org which validated that $4.2 billion was (improperly) paid in 2010 in tax refunds to workers who are in the U.S. illegally?:

Tax Credits for Illegal Immigrants
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,421
7,555
Maine
This could be part of an effort to harass EVs owners (and potential owners). Wouldn't put it past our current administration's war on EVs and the environment to start this campaign.

Or, it could be part of a campaign to try to scrap the tax credit.

Validating this stuff should have been relatively easy.
The filing has a VIN.
The VIN can be validated a VIN database to determine that the vehicle can get the tax credit, and, with another, small, dataset, that the amount claimed was valid.

In almost all cases the VIN can also be checked against NMVTIS to find the dates of issue of Titles, which would identify any cases where there was a fast turnover after purchase, which would indicate buying for resale, or that the original owner wasn't the first user of the vehicle.

But, how often late last year did we see people posting on this forum asking for ways to get around the rules so they could claim the tax credit or sell their reservation? People will always try, no matter how clear the rules are.

But also note the "questionable". I suspect it's just the first, basic analysis performed.
 

cpa

Active Member
May 17, 2014
3,064
3,814
Central Valley
But, how often late last year did we see people posting on this forum asking for ways to get around the rules so they could claim the tax credit or sell their reservation? People will always try, no matter how clear the rules are.

Agreed 100%. Some folks like to skirt the intent of the law. I politely show them the door.

Validating this stuff should have been relatively easy.
The filing has a VIN.
The VIN can be validated a VIN database to determine that the vehicle can get the tax credit, and, with another, small, dataset, that the amount claimed was valid.

I know zero, zip, nada about computers. But we are talking about Kennedy administration computers here. I really cannot comment as to the ease of importing data from modern computers from a totally different database, (?) operating system (?), and maintained by how many different entities. Maybe it is merely red tape. Dunno.

The Service takes taxpayer privacy much more seriously than any profit-driven company. The Service makes a lot of mistakes that cost us taxpayers a lot of dollars. But I would rather see inefficiency in action with the IRS that costs each of us a tiny prorata amount of our tax dollars than a breach of privacy in their computer systems that costs us individually a lot more money, a lot of inconvenience, and a lot of headaches trying to get our credit and other personal information cleaned up.

Better article from FactCheck.org which validated that $4.2 billion was (improperly) paid in 2010 in tax refunds to workers who are in the U.S. illegally?:

Yes, regrettably this happens. There are a lot of tax mills out there operated by gypsies, grifters, and other flim-flammers who conspire to file fraudulent returns, claim refunds, and vanish. Treasury is usually a couple of years behind the times in catching up with these frauds. Treasury is slowly coming into the modern era, however. Twenty-ten was nine years ago. Filing season now starts officially usually the last week in January. But those returns with W-2s and 1099s with withholding are shelved for about three weeks until employers and others file the appropriate information with Social Security (W-2) or the IRS itself (1099) and the withholding information by taxpayer is validated and pushed into each taxpayer's personal IRS file for comparison before any refund is remitted.

In addition, business that report wages are encouraged now to state the number of W-2s that they have filed for the preceding calendar year. This is to compare the quantity of W-2s prepared that are legitimate and filed with SSA to the quantity of W-2s from individual taxpayers who claim to have worked for that company. Not a great technique, but baby steps.

If Treasury were serious about fraudulent refunds, they will have to overhaul the payroll tax reporting system. I doubt that the anachronistic computer system still in use could handle such a task. But this is a discussion for another time.
 
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mspohr

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2014
9,255
10,783
California
You're correct. My apologies for attaching the wrong URL.

Better article from FactCheck.org which validated that $4.2 billion was (improperly) paid in 2010 in tax refunds to workers who are in the U.S. illegally?:

Tax Credits for Illegal Immigrants
Interesting article. It seems this money is a refundable child credit and most of these children are US citizens (but their parents may not be citizens).
I think they should be able to keep the money.
 

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