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Taxpayers received $74 million in questionable EV tax credits says Treasury Dept.

mspohr

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2014
9,254
10,782
California
So if I understand you correctly, you're saying $4.2 BILLION inTAX FRAUD is OK because SOME undocumented immigrants are pay taxes?

Wow I didn't know that because somebody else paid taxes TAX FRAUD is justified.
If you read TFA, it's US citizen children receiving the refundable child tax credit which they are entitled to receive. The question is that some of their parents may not be legal residents. Some in Congress want to clear up this grey area in the law and make it clear that the children are definitely eligible to receive this credit. Others in Congress want to make it illegal as part of their war on immigrants.
 

BrokerDon

Active Member
Aug 23, 2014
1,399
1,289
Newport Coast, CA
If you read TFA, it's US citizen children receiving the refundable child tax credit which they are entitled to receive. The question is that some of their parents may not be legal residents. Some in Congress want to clear up this grey area in the law and make it clear that the children are definitely eligible to receive this credit. Others in Congress want to make it illegal as part of their war on immigrants.

Actually if YOU read TFA you’d realize what you just stated above was inaccurate:

Finally, President Obama’s 2009 stimulus measure made temporary changes that had the effect of allowing more parents to claim the refundable credits, or claim greater amounts. And the total grew the following year to the $4.2 billion cited by the IG. Those “temporary” changes now have been extended at least through 2012 by the bill Obama signed in December 2010, which also extended the Bush tax cuts and enacted additional economic stimulus measures including a reduction in federal payroll taxes.

Non-citizen children can qualify if they are legally residents and have at least an ITIN. And the requirements aren’t vigorously enforced. The IG report said the IRS management doesn’t demand that parents submit documentation to prove that the children they are claiming actually reside in the U.S., something the IG recommended and IRS management said it lacked legal authority to do. So it is at least possible that some refunds are being paid based on children who aren’t citizens, or who aren’t even living in the U.S.

Not all Democrats defend the payments. In the Senate, Claire McCaskill of Missouri called the IG report “alarming” and asked the IRS to act. “While the total amount of payments to unauthorized workers is enormous, the trend lines are even more disturbing,” McCaskill wrote in a letter to IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman on Sept. 7, 2011. “Wrongful payments of refundable tax credits, should be easy to identify and stop. The law is clear that individuals who are not authorized to work in the United States are not entitled to public benefits.”
 

mspohr

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2014
9,254
10,782
California
Actually if YOU read TFA you’d realize what you just stated above was inaccurate:

Finally, President Obama’s 2009 stimulus measure made temporary changes that had the effect of allowing more parents to claim the refundable credits, or claim greater amounts. And the total grew the following year to the $4.2 billion cited by the IG. Those “temporary” changes now have been extended at least through 2012 by the bill Obama signed in December 2010, which also extended the Bush tax cuts and enacted additional economic stimulus measures including a reduction in federal payroll taxes.

Non-citizen children can qualify if they are legally residents and have at least an ITIN. And the requirements aren’t vigorously enforced. The IG report said the IRS management doesn’t demand that parents submit documentation to prove that the children they are claiming actually reside in the U.S., something the IG recommended and IRS management said it lacked legal authority to do. So it is at least possible that some refunds are being paid based on children who aren’t citizens, or who aren’t even living in the U.S.

Not all Democrats defend the payments. In the Senate, Claire McCaskill of Missouri called the IG report “alarming” and asked the IRS to act. “While the total amount of payments to unauthorized workers is enormous, the trend lines are even more disturbing,” McCaskill wrote in a letter to IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman on Sept. 7, 2011. “Wrongful payments of refundable tax credits, should be easy to identify and stop. The law is clear that individuals who are not authorized to work in the United States are not entitled to public benefits.”
So, I guess it isn't a "legal grey area". It looks like these resident children are definitely eligible to receive the child credit.
The only "questionable" part is that the IRS doesn't have any way to verify the residency/citizenship status of the children so it calls all of the payments "questionable".
And yes, some of our psychopathic Congresscritters are outraged that we are actually giving money to children for food, housing, health care, etc.
 

BrokerDon

Active Member
Aug 23, 2014
1,399
1,289
Newport Coast, CA
So, I guess it isn't a "legal grey area". It looks like these resident children are definitely eligible to receive the child credit.
The only "questionable" part is that the IRS doesn't have any way to verify the residency/citizenship status of the children so it calls all of the payments "questionable".

And yes, some of our psychopathic Congresscritters are outraged that we are actually giving money to children for food, housing, health care, etc.

NOPE. Actually the IRS does have a way to verify the Non-citizen children who are:
  1. legally residents and
  2. have at least an ITIN
However the IRS management doesn’t "demand" that parents submit documentation to prove that the children they are claiming actually reside in the U.S., something the IG recommended to prevent fraud.

Also, many tax paying legal U.S. citizens are outraged that the IRS who constantly claims they're "underfunded" is actually giving BILLION$ to the parents of Non-citizen children who are NOT legally U.S. residents... and at least have an ITIN.
 

vickh

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
3,097
480
az
Back to topic. Does Tesla provide a form letter/receipt for the credit. HR mentioned a letter from manufacturer certifying the credit. I didn't get one.

If not how does IRS cross-check the VIN/ delivery date?
 
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BrokerDon

Active Member
Aug 23, 2014
1,399
1,289
Newport Coast, CA
Back to topic. Does Tesla provide a form letter/receipt for the credit. HR mentioned a letter from manufacturer certifying the credit. I didn't get one.

If not how does IRS cross-check the VIN/ delivery date?

Tesla did NOT provide a form letter/receipt for the tax credit when we bought our Tesla in July 2015.

Nobody will be able to confirm with authority if the IRS cross checks VIN / delivery dates. The IRS rarely discloses how it "cross checks" what you put on your tax return with the information reported to them by your state, employers, banks, stock brokerage companies, etc.

Form 8936 Qualified Plug-in Electric Drive Motor Vehicle Credit (Including Qualified Two-Wheeled Plug-in Electric Vehicles) https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8936.pdf clearly states the tax credit you're entitled to based on the date your Tesla was acquired. "Acquired" means your vehicle's "In Service Date" which is the date you took delivery of your Tesla... NOT it's order date, build date, date you paid for your Tesla, etc. IRC 30D New Qualified Plug-In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle Credit | Internal Revenue Service

Obviously, you can report your VIN and an earlier date your Tesla was acquired to fraudulently try to get a larger tax credit than you're entitled... but you run the risk of the IRS cross checking VIN / delivery date... or asking for written proof of your delivery date. If the IRS discovers your "error", you'll almost assuredly be subject to a tax assessment equal to:
  • your refund overpayment
  • penalties
  • interest
  • criminal prosecution (if you provide the IRS falsified documents)
You might also trigger an audit which could uncover more tax issue$... Or you might just get away with tax fraud reporting your date acquired "incorrectly".

Definitely risky to incorrectly report anything on your tax return... but the IRS is notoriously understaffed so maybe you'll get away with it. Unfortunately you won't know for years since the IRS can take challenge your tax return for years... or forever since there's no Statue of Limitations on tax fraud.

 

Dr. J

Active Member
Aug 23, 2017
1,473
2,687
Fort Worth, Texas
So if I understand you correctly, you're saying $4.2 BILLION inTAX FRAUD is OK because SOME undocumented immigrants are pay taxes?

Wow I didn't know that because somebody else paid taxes TAX FRAUD is justified.
You do not understand me correctly. I'm not saying one justifies the other. I'm saying both are true.
 

vickh

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
3,097
480
az
my concern is I have no proof of 6/29 delivery date, everything references order date, build date etc.

Registration was in July
 
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vickh

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
3,097
480
az
I wonder how many people will try to claim a $7,500 tax credit on their 2019 tax returns when they are really only eligible for $3,750 or $1,875. TurboTax most likely won’t catch that error.

One can't claim 100% very easily for tax returns starting in 2019 (maybe for 2018) if IRS does the most basic VIN check against the manufacture date.

See: Line 4b https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8936.pdf

Enter 100% unless the vehicle was manufactured by Tesla or General Motors (Chevrolet Bolt EV, etc.). Tesla. Enter the following percentage if the vehicle was manufactured by Tesla. • 100% if you purchased it before January 1, 2019
 
Last edited:
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Big Dog

Active Member
Mar 7, 2016
1,537
1,532
Irvine, CA
my concern is I have no proof of 6/29 delivery date, everything references order date, build date etc.

Registration was in July

Did you not receive a copy of your (electronically) signed and dated MVPA? (I purchased two model 3's, and received both mvpa's by e-mail a week or so after delivery.)

If you have not received it, contact Telsa.
 

BrokerDon

Active Member
Aug 23, 2014
1,399
1,289
Newport Coast, CA
Can't claim easily tax returns on 2019 (maybe 2018)

See: Line 4b https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8936.pdf

IF you fraudulently enter an "earlier" date of purchase on the IRS Form 8936 or TurboTax claiming a higher tax credit. both will calculate a higher tax credit amount. TurboTax doesn't check VINs for purchase date (a.k.a. "date acquired" or "in service date")... but it doesn't mean the IRS won't catch your error triggering a balance due including penalties and interest... or even an audit.
 

PDACPA

Member
Mar 27, 2019
133
42
Tampa, Florida
@vickh The IRS rule is the date placed in service. You probably have some paperwork with a signature on it with that date in the off chance you got a letter audit from the IRS to prove it was in service before 7/31.

Not to get off point, but back a few years ago when Identity theft was running rampant and Miami and Tampa were two of the largest areas affected by it; I had a law enforcement official on a multi law enforcement agency task force. He had a case with documented evidence of over $300,000 in identify theft fraud by a group (using a stolen social security number with phony W-2's they created tax returns with a refund and had the refund sent to a bogus address either on a debit card or check). The IRS refused to move forward as each instance was under $9,000 and not worth their while to move forward.
 

vickh

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
3,097
480
az
Did you not receive a copy of your (electronically) signed and dated MVPA? (I purchased two model 3's, and received both mvpa's by e-mail a week or so after delivery.)

If you have not received it, contact Telsa.

Nope the MVPA online https://www.tesla.com/teslaaccount/ownership/details?vin= only shows purchase date: MOTOR VEHICLE PURCHASE AGREEMENT Final Price Sheet DATE OF AGREEMENT: June 2, 2019

I did contact the store (actually went by to address a referral issue) and nothing. They said to go by the online MVPA
 
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ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,419
7,548
Maine
Tesla did NOT provide a form letter/receipt for the tax credit when we bought our Tesla in July 2015.

Nobody will be able to confirm with authority if the IRS cross checks VIN / delivery dates. The IRS rarely discloses how it "cross checks" what you put on your tax return with the information reported to them by your state, employers, banks, stock brokerage companies, etc.

Form 8936 Qualified Plug-in Electric Drive Motor Vehicle Credit (Including Qualified Two-Wheeled Plug-in Electric Vehicles) https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8936.pdf clearly states the tax credit you're entitled to based on the date your Tesla was acquired. "Acquired" means your vehicle's "In Service Date" which is the date you took delivery of your Tesla... NOT it's order date, build date, date you paid for your Tesla, etc. IRC 30D New Qualified Plug-In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle Credit | Internal Revenue Service

Obviously, you can report your VIN and an earlier date your Tesla was acquired to fraudulently try to get a larger tax credit than you're entitled... but you run the risk of the IRS cross checking VIN / delivery date... or asking for written proof of your delivery date. If the IRS discovers your "error", you'll almost assuredly be subject to a tax assessment equal to:
  • your refund overpayment
  • penalties
  • interest
  • criminal prosecution (if you provide the IRS falsified documents)
You might also trigger an audit which could uncover more tax issue$... Or you might just get away with tax fraud reporting your date acquired "incorrectly".

Definitely risky to incorrectly report anything on your tax return... but the IRS is notoriously understaffed so maybe you'll get away with it. Unfortunately you won't know for years since the IRS can take challenge your tax return for years... or forever since there's no Statue of Limitations on tax fraud.


As it notes: “[a] vehicle is not “acquired” before the date on which title to that vehicle passes under state law.”

Date acquired is the date on which you are determined by your state to have taken title to the vehicle,
which is generally the purchase date. That is, a state Title issue recognizes that you had title when you you purchased it.

For the phase-out period, which affects the amount you can claim, the text of the law only mentions the _sale_, which would relate to acquisition:
26 U.S. Code § 30D - New qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicles
.
But the date "placed in service" is different.

26 CFR § 1.167(a)-11 - Depreciation based on class lives and asset depreciation ranges for property placed in service after December 31, 1970.:

The Man said:
(i)In general. The term “first placed in service” refers to the time the property is first placed in service by the taxpayer, not to the first time the property is placed in service. Property is first placed in service when first placed in a condition or state of readiness and availability for a specifically assigned function, whether in a trade or business, in the production of income, in a tax-exempt activity, or in a personal activity.
(The page in general relates to depreciation accounting).

Clearly, a car is not in service to the taxpayer until they have it and can use it legally. Here in Maine, Tesla delivers the car, and you need to wait for the paperwork, so you can get it registered and inspected and _then_ it's ready and available for driving. But for people who can pick up the car with a temporary tag and drive it straight away,

The date placed in service determines for which tax year you file the tax credit.

There is no wording in the law about the date acquired, only that you must have acquired it before you can file for the credit.

My reading is that:
1) It's the selling that determines the percentage, so it would be the date you complete the purchase (finishing paying Tesla for the vehicle). But it would depend on when Tesla reports it as a sale to the IRS. (Not in the delivery reports, but in the related quarterly reports to the IRS).
2) The first date you had the car and were legally able to drive the vehicle (or place it) is the date placed in service and determines the filing tax year.

IANALOCPA.
 
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Big Dog

Active Member
Mar 7, 2016
1,537
1,532
Irvine, CA
Nope the MVPA online https://www.tesla.com/teslaaccount/ownership/details?vin= only shows purchase date: MOTOR VEHICLE PURCHASE AGREEMENT Final Price Sheet DATE OF AGREEMENT: June 2, 2019

I did contact the store (actually went by to address a referral issue) and nothing. They said to go by the online MVPA

The store guys/gals just want to get rid of you. Call the Tesla 800 number and demand a copy of your signed mvpa for your 'lawyer'.

(Our second purchase, Aug-18 was signed and dated electronically, and that's what it shows in page 3. It was delivered by e-mail ~10 days after car pickup, if I recall.)

Good luck.
 
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