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Taycan impact on Model S - a theory I hope is not true

VQTRVA

Member
Mar 13, 2019
453
507
CVA
No hatred. What I object to is the theory that any crticism has to be balanced against the greatness of what is being accomplished as judged by you or @VQTRVA. WHAT’s up with that? Sounds like MAGA stuff.


Well considering now you think that your own subjective leanings are somehow excluded from the conversation & that only one side apparently is worthy of criticism...Now that is MAGA.


Chasing greatness & incrementalism ( look up AGILE development) - I am not sure you know what we're talking about - since you made it about yourself now El Presidente!
 

Chaserr

Hyperactive Hyperdrive
Sep 5, 2017
2,666
6,523
Logan
@Scott7Just don't ever buy the car again, and tell everyone you know not to, if you feel so strong about the company. Not sure of what you're talking about but even if true "taken battery capacity and horsepower away from people that paid them thousands for those upgrades" pales in comparison to what other companies are doing everyday themselves or doing those hiding behind stealerships. And have you ever heard of the dieselgate? Do you know how much money consumers were cheated and how many children's lungs may be damaged from those high NoX emissions? That's where you really should direct your animosity to.

Whataboutery doesn't defend Tesla. I paid for an 85 range upgrade, they reduce it to the base 60 range without even a patch note. That's theft. Believe me, I will not stop telling people to avoid Tesla, you may feel safe for now because they haven't come for you yet but don't try and pretend tesla can get away with crimes just because you read the news. Honestly, I can't figure out why you'd defend their decision to actively drive away customers. They sold cars on our referrals, they will find the opposite is just as effective.

I bought my Tesla for performance. No other reasons convince me to buy a car, I will buy the dirtiest nuclear fire car if it performs better. Their actions show they had the intent to deprive us of our possessions without our knowledge. The only news that will make that better is Tesla returning what they have stolen. If environmentalism means that much to you that you'll excuse criminal acts in its name, you should be upset that this is pushing people away from buying teslas.

What is this you are referring to?
Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
 
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Skipdd

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Dec 30, 2015
738
998
Silver Spring, MD
Well considering now you think that your own subjective leanings are somehow excluded from the conversation & that only one side apparently is worthy of criticism...Now that is MAGA.


Chasing greatness & incrementalism ( look up AGILE development) - I am not sure you know what we're talking about - since you made it about yourself now El Presidente!

I give up having discourse with you. Your argument style is sophistry and you seem to enjoy arguing; I don’t. Let’s just agree to disagree. Everyone should have that right in this forum. Cheers.
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,733
8,566
Seattle area, WA
A lot things laypeople


Definitely the case. You probably are still not getting it why smartest people change their mind often. They will not hesitate to make new decisions when more new information are coming in. I, and you too, have no idea what was the true situation behind the yellow band but I'm sure it's a more complicated situation that involves a lot of level from design to supply chain than just to replace the screen. One thing I've heard was it will reappear even if it's replaced with a new screen. Or if you're evil minded it could even be finance people told him this will break the company if he does that (at least some of us do not want that to happen). It would be FOOLISH just to stick to the original assessment and give everyone a new screen for any of those reasons.

I don't know you but by mentioning Bernie Madoff I finally realized where you're coming from.
If you think making a decision to screw customers is a sign of a smart man, then Bernie is an excellent example. He too made decisions he had to to keep his empire afloat. If he told people the truth, everything would crumble. And he too, just under-delivered on his 12% return promises.

Elon takes huge risks, and using a non-automotive grade screen was one which didn't pan out - as risks go, the higher the risk, the higher the failure rate. That is his or his business risk, not customer's, therefore he or the business should cover the fallout. From a customer point of view, some percentage, however small, of the screens are not failing, so it's in the customer interest to keep swapping until you hit one that works. By refusing to fix the screen Elon is just saying "customers, you are responsible for my mistakes, I take credit for all successes". Even if this is just a delay tactic, the screen warranty is not extended by however long it takes Tesla to fix it, so by delaying it, Elon is shortening the screen warranty, and the number of swaps customer could get to try to get one of the good screens. All he has to do is run out the car warranty, then swap the screen once, then if the screen dies 61 days later, not covered anymore - given that most screens do last more than 60 days, there is no financial motivation to ever fix it - cheaper to just install yellowing screens, stall for time, replace them once, then who cares if they are yellow. Smart, eh?

I just got yet a 3rd story on yellow screen in 2 days (dropping the car off, then picking it up) - they call them "updates", so nobody can claim they are inconsistent, the story is just "updated" very often. By your theory Elon is getting smarted by the minute, as he keeps changing his mind faster and faster every day. Maybe you should go all-in on TSLA stock, if the price grows as fast as Elon's pace of changing his mind (a measure of smartness according to you), you'll be rich.
 
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VT_EE

Active Member
Apr 22, 2017
2,077
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Yes, I only listed what I personally experienced.


Evidently many such clouds all around the world. Many people on TMC have, but percentage wise I agree. Tesla more then doubled the number of cars on the road in the last year, so the majority of customers have not experienced Tesla long term. The topic I was responding to was the the "tiger never changes its stripes", so history is relevant information for that.


You evidently don't grasp the extend of what Tesla does. No other manufacturer dares to pull crap like Tesla does. For example, it's not that they have a concept which didn't come to market, more like they sold you a concept, then when it came to market, they gave it a slightly different name, told you you that what you paid for is not ever coming, but they will not refund you either, but you can however buy the new thing for a ton of money. Specific example: me, and a few thousand other people, paid $25K extra to upgrade from S85D to P85D. The order page said it will produce 274hp more (691hp for P85D vs. 417hp for 85D), but it said the power upgrade will come soon over the air. Two years of radio silence, finally some people in Europe sue and Tesla admits that all we got is 46hp extra, a far cry from 274hp, BUT, wait for it, the motors are capable, just not the whole car. Oh, also, for only $80K more I could upgrade to P100D which did produce the advertised 691hp. It would be like Tesla never delivering on FSD and telling people their cars are capable, but will never do it - heck, with FSD they had a fine print saying nobody knows when it will be available, so they are more legally covered than the P85D upgrade.



Responding to "tiger never changes its stripes" I was providing some history as a Tesla customer. I am not sure what's confusing you about that - is it that you are seeing everything though the lens of a brand new customer? Your TMC join date is less than 4 months ago, so if you just got the car, I get and can understand the honeymoon stage - I've been a Tesla customer for over 6 years now, 4 new cars during that time, so I have some perspective, and my "honeymoon period" lasted almost 3 years by the way (but then again, Service was amazing back then, fixed all issues, there was a live person you could call, didn't have to wait a month for an appointment, etc).
Oh my god, please stop the whining. It appears you have been so wronged by Tesla you should sell any Tesla you own and move on. Perhaps the other EV offerings will make you happy with their traditional blood-sucking dealers.
 

Chaserr

Hyperactive Hyperdrive
Sep 5, 2017
2,666
6,523
Logan
Tesla should pay for what they've stolen but that doesn't mean they have to buy the whole car. It's not whining to want justice, it's the legal system in action. We get it "I got mine so everyone else shut up and go away" is your attitude and you're welcome to it, but don't expect everyone else to turn the other cheek when they've been wronged. Also, asking us to go away is excessive - this is the S forum we own these cars. Take your own advice, move on since you don't have one and it bothers you to read about them.

If you're still here (and if any of us are still around in 7 years) we'll support you when tesla downgrades your car to a LEMR without permission.
 
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VT_EE

Active Member
Apr 22, 2017
2,077
2,777
Maryland
Pretty sure you should look in the mirror, then possibly swallow a dose of humility. Might get you farther in the long run.

I for one appreciate the folks posting issues, advocating for solutions, and trying to hold the company accountable. You can like the product (I do), want the company to succeed (ditto), and still have issues with flaws that mar the experience. Experience enough flaws (apparently you haven’t), and one might hit the pause button on buying more product. Every company needs a feedback loop. If they are smart, they pay attention to it..am pretty sure there’s an aphorism for that too.
The problem is when you read the same problem over and over again from the same people. It is then whining, not informing.
 
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whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,733
8,566
Seattle area, WA
Oh my god, please stop the whining. It appears you have been so wronged by Tesla you should sell any Tesla you own and move on. Perhaps the other EV offerings will make you happy with their traditional blood-sucking dealers.
Calling someone sharing bad experience with the company whining is a very poor argument. As for selling Teslas, actually just realized I can't even sell the 2018 because nobody will trade it in with the yellow screen, and Tesla's latest "update" is they will not replace it, because they some fix coming at the end of the year.

As for dealer experience, Tesla experience used to be so much better. However, with all the recent changes, and having just gone through the latest service experience, it makes me long for the dealer experience now. Dealers are actually on your side when it comes to warranty, Tesla service has a large conflict of interest because every repair is money lost for Tesla, vs. every warranty repair is money made for a dealer.
 
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Chaserr

Hyperactive Hyperdrive
Sep 5, 2017
2,666
6,523
Logan
The problem is when you read the same problem over and over again from the same people. It is then whining, not informing.

You're conflating "whining" for "consistent problems" - Tesla has consistent problems and the company would improve if it started addressing them. If tesla fixed its consistent problems you wouldn't be hurt by them anymore.
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,733
8,566
Seattle area, WA
The problem is when you read the same problem over and over again from the same people. It is then whining, not informing.
The same information gets repeated because in reply to posting questions and/or contradicting information, probably because they missed or just didn't read the other posts on the matter. If I say "2+2 is 4", and then a whole bunch of people will keep arguing how it's 0 or 7 or 22, repeating "2+2" is 4 is just providing them with the information they missed, not whining. ;)
 
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City Racer

Member
Aug 4, 2017
92
93
Palo Alto, CA
I'm one who's not taken by the Taycan, for a ton of reasons.
1) I've been a Porsche owner for the past 13 years, and have gone from infatuation to detesting the brand. Their product has so many problems compared to just about any other car I've owned. In terms of service, their business model is pure rip off.
2) I've driven most of Porsche's current offerings, and have not been blown away by any of them.
3) If you look at Tesla's trajectory over the past 10 years, they've gone from literally nothing to building 3 class leading vehicles. Can you name one car in the 3 respective segments Tesla participates in that is better than a Tesla? Nothing even comes close. I've seen no evidence that any other manufacturer can deliver a competitive offering in either the near or long term.
4) People assume that just because a car has a Porsche badge on it it will have an edge in handling. That may be true with ICE cars, but they have no such advantage in the EV world. Keep in mind Tesla pioneered the skateboard design, which intrinsically exhibits superior handling due to the low center of gravity.
5) Germany has great engineers, but the best software are developed in Silicon Valley.
6) Tesla's lead in these areas are nearly insurmountable for any competitor:
  • AI and autonomy
  • Charging network
  • Real world data
  • Battery production
If anybody wants to match Tesla in any of the above areas, it will require massive investment, corporate commitment, and risk taking. That will never happen in a traditional company that wants to make money each quarter to please the bean counters on Wall Street. Elon Musk is the only guy who has the means to say "f*** you all, I will make it happen". It doesn't really matter that VW or other companies have a ton of cash. If they try to do what Elon has done, the whole company will be shaken.
 

Magellan55

Member
Aug 30, 2018
386
365
Chapel Hill, NC
I understand the Taycan will emphasize sustained racetrack ability to set it apart from Tesla, which will make it compromised as an everyday driver. But there will be plenty of customers who want the bragging rights of "fastest around the Nurburgring" or whatever, even if they never take it to the racetrack. Look at the Panamera / Macan / Cayenne sales as examples. Or heck how many SUV buyers just want the "go anywhere" image even if they never go beyond the suburban mall? Marketing can drive a lot of buying behavior.
 

CarlK

Active Member
Mar 23, 2013
1,919
1,402
SF Bay Area
I understand the Taycan will emphasize sustained racetrack ability to set it apart from Tesla, which will make it compromised as an everyday driver. But there will be plenty of customers who want the bragging rights of "fastest around the Nurburgring" or whatever, even if they never take it to the racetrack. Look at the Panamera / Macan / Cayenne sales as examples. Or heck how many SUV buyers just want the "go anywhere" image even if they never go beyond the suburban mall? Marketing can drive a lot of buying behavior.

Maybe so but 95% of car buying public probably have never even heard of Nurburgring. Porsche is barking at the wrong tree simply because it could not match Tesla's 0-60 which everyone knows what it is. Not appropriately either but that gave Tesla the reputation of being the fastest production car on the market and the reason why many are considering the car. Pick a person in a BMW or Camaro and ask if you want a Porsche so you could run the Nurburgring or a Tesla so you could beat everyone, including the Porsche, at the next stop light I'm pretty sure what the answer would be.

Even for people who do go to tracks there are already many reports of P3D+ beating 911's, other than those track oriented GT's costing many times the price, on 2~3 minute tracks. So there you have it. It may take some time but words will eventually get out.
 

electronblue

Active Member
Oct 1, 2018
2,325
2,507
Earth
Oh my god, please stop the whining. It appears you have been so wronged by Tesla you should sell any Tesla you own and move on. Perhaps the other EV offerings will make you happy with their traditional blood-sucking dealers.

The problem with this is having to eat the depreciation too. Luckily Teslas will become appreciating assets any day now according to Elon.
 
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Tony8489

Member
Oct 17, 2015
267
369
Last week I was at a Porsche dealer to get a new key for my 2011 Cayenne. While waiting the general manager asked if I had some questions so I inquired about the Taycan. There will be a US introduction at the LA Auto Show late this fall and the dealers will hold some events shortly thereafter. As for sales, each US dealer will get two cars to start. Deposits have already been made for about twice as many Taycans as they expect to sell in the US in 2020. So this is going to be very low volume compared to Tesla.

I suggested that Porsche enable their EV's to use Tesla superchargers as the Taycan can clearly handle to charging speed of V2 and probably v3 as well. He agreed that Electrify Amerca's Network is far behind Tesla's and I mentioned that it may nit be up to Porche's standard of reliability from early reports. I also mentioned that European Tesla Model 3's are enabled for CCS charging, so there is precedent for cars being able to use both fast charging networks to enable destination travel.
 
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S'toon

Knows where his towel is
Apr 23, 2015
3,702
3,748
AB
I'm finding it interesting reading the perspective of Porsche fans. They seem to think that the Taycan will be the much touted never appearing so far "Tesla Killer," because it's a Porsche. They seem to think that Porsche gives it some magical cache.

You know what my thought is whenever I see a Porsche or read about Porsches? "Complete and utter ahole."
 
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VT_EE

Active Member
Apr 22, 2017
2,077
2,777
Maryland
I'm finding it interesting reading the perspective of Porsche fans. They seem to think that the Taycan will be the much touted never appearing so far "Tesla Killer," because it's a Porsche. They seem to think that Porsche gives it some magical cache.

You know what my thought is whenever I see a Porsche or read about Porsches? "Complete and utter ahole."
That is a bit harsh.
 

CarlK

Active Member
Mar 23, 2013
1,919
1,402
SF Bay Area
I'm finding it interesting reading the perspective of Porsche fans. They seem to think that the Taycan will be the much touted never appearing so far "Tesla Killer," because it's a Porsche. They seem to think that Porsche gives it some magical cache.

You know what my thought is whenever I see a Porsche or read about Porsches? "Complete and utter ahole."

Those "Porsche fans" probably have never owned a Porsche. I and many other former and current Porsche owners also own Tesla. From what I can tell from reactions on Porsche forum many people there are disappointed of the Taycan. Don't think every Porsche owner is a jerk with a lot of free money to throw away for anything.
 
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seattlite2004

Active Member
Apr 12, 2016
1,186
1,427
Puget Sound
Regarding the AP or NoA topics, I’m not sure if any of you all have tried the systems from Audi, Volvo, GM, BMW, MB, etc. They are absolute crap compared to what we are used to. On a quick highway demo they might look nice but any real curves in the road or merge lanes and they disengage. I know Tesla’s AP is far from perfect but in daily use for the past two years, man is it still impressive.

Interesting comments @13:26....I've read that the Taycan will be using the Audi AI Adaptive Assist:

 

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