Taycan Takedown

[MP3Mike]

This is odd. The Model 3P is faster around a track than the Model S. Maybe they've got a new special edition Model S?

How much is the difference in the Raven Model S with the new adaptive suspension and Model 3 style motor in the front?

 

[wenkan]

Maybe Elon have heard my suggestion to install a huge fan on the Model S. Dissipate heat and suck the car down to the ground.

Or maybe he decided to just turn off the protection in firmware and fully confident it will not catch fire in 8 minutes. Just throw the overheated battery to the trash after beat Taycan on the ring.

 

[Seven7]

I just built one on their website, $212,000.00 and that didn't even include ceramic brakes. No thanks Porsche

 

[VT_EE]

If you pay $600 for that option. Otherwise, only 50kW for the plebes.

I can imagine a bunch of Porsche bean counters sitting around a table figuring out how best to nickel and dime / bend-over customers with crap like this.

 

[VT_EE]

Maybe Elon have heard my suggestion to install a huge fan on the Model S. Dissipate heat and suck the car down to the ground.

Or maybe he decided to just turn off the protection in firmware and fully confident it will not catch fire in 8 minutes. Just throw the overheated battery to the trash after beat Taycan on the ring.

It's the new SpaceX Package now available on the S.

 

[acoste]

No one else use 800V battery than Porsche. Considering the crazy price point and low production amount (20k a year global). I really doubt anyone would bother installing 800V chargers other than porsche dealers.

If you use 400V EA chargers, then you only have 135kw charging (half of the claimed 270kw). Which is slower than tesla sc. Charging at a dealer? They are not easy to find when you need them (on a road trip), also what can you do when you are stranded in middle of the car dealers? Must be purely bored.

I don't think so. Everyone wants faster charging. Higher voltage helps. So I do expect more cars coming with 800V.

 

[Eno Deb]

I can imagine a bunch of Porsche bean counters sitting around a table figuring out how best to nickel and dime / bend-over customers with crap like this.

That has always been Porsche's MO: milk the customer to the max with a ridiculous set of options. I certainly don't want Tesla to adopt that approach. The thing is, though, that besides all the ridiculous stuff (like a key fob in car color for $500) they also offer lots of useful options that I would really like to have in my Model 3 but aren't available for any price, such as sport seats, acoustic glass, 360 surround parking view, matrix headlights, as well as some standard features that I really miss (such as working automatic wipers and Apple Carplay). Sigh.

 

[Erleichda]

Comparing chalk and cheese. Top of the line Taycan is not intended to compete with any version of the M3. It will be priced above the MSP and will outperform it, including having a much nicer interior, maintaining full or near full performance for extended track laps, and handling better. However, from the early reports, the Taycans will not have range anywhere near either Tesla.

Looking back on these posts is such a LOL.

 

[Erleichda]

That has always been Porsche's MO: milk the customer to the max with a ridiculous set of options. I certainly don't want Tesla to adopt that approach. The thing is, though, that besides all the ridiculous stuff (like a key fob in car color for $500) they also offer lots of useful options that I would really like to have in my Model 3 but aren't available for any price, such as sport seats, acoustic glass, 360 surround parking view, matrix headlights, as well as some standard features that I really miss (such as working automatic wipers and Apple Carplay). Sigh.

TBF, add in all the options Porsche is gouging that are INCLUDED in a car that either is almost as fast around the track (3P) or way more space and features like AP...both for seriously gobsmackingly less money. Porsche failed bigly.

 

[Eno Deb]

TBF, add in all the options Porsche is gouging that are INCLUDED in a car that either is almost as fast around the track (3P) or way more space and features like AP...

Not so sure about the AP part. The only really useful features of Autopilot to date are lane keeping and ACC, and the Porsche has both. They also have what's probably Audi's traffic jam assist, which is an "almost" level 3 system. I guess we'll have to wait for independent test drives to see how they stack up against Autopilot.

both for seriously gobsmackingly less money. Porsche failed bigly.

That has been said about Porsche for decades. "Why get a 911 when you can get a Corvette for half the price?" Guess what, they are still making record profits, while GM went bankrupt and had to be bailed out. I guess they must know something we don't.

 

[Erleichda]

Wow - this thread sure did generate some serious interest - and some heat too! I guess that's not surprising given that the Porsche Taycan is the first serious competition for Tesla, as the Jaguar I pace and the Audi E Tron SUV aren't really much competition. The problem is the Taycan lines up more against the Model 3 Performance in many ways, and while outperforming it slightly, and likely having better thermal management (and for sure way better thermal management than the aging Model S), but in the Premium Turbo S form, it's 3 times as expensive.

In any case here's how I would see these matchups, even though in many ways these cars are not really optimally lined up as competition for one another:

1) Range – from the recently released European mileage cycle numbers, even the premium Turbo S Taycan may take a backseat to the model S and even the Model 3 DMP.

2) Charging/Charging Network – also no competition and although on paper it may have some advantages with being able to charge at 270 kW, how many places can you actually get that level of charging? And how long will it take before Porsche and Audi have even 500 of these high-level chargers available in the United States? At least several years. The Model 3 will be able to charge at 250 kW on version 3 superchargers, and it looks like it's a draw on charging speed there, even if the Taycan has some theoretical advantages on the Model S. However the wide availability of superchargers means that Tesla realistically wins on this point too.

2) Build quality – likely to be a clear slamdunk for the Porsche. Tesla's got a lot of work still to do on this. It's downright embarrassing. In the quality of the materials on the interior is also not comparable, which is particularly troubling in a premium sedan like the Model S, but even the Model 3's interior needs a material quality upgrade commensurate with its ~$60,000 price.

3) Handling/Trackability/Performance – still not clear what this is going to drive like but it is going to come in at something like 4700 pounds. I suspect it will be a way better driver's car than the Model S, but it's still unlikely to feel as light on its feet as the Model 3 DMP. Will have to wait and see what the full instrumented road tests look like, but I have to believe it's not going to really be much quicker around most tracks than a dual motor performance that is suitably upgraded (MPP coilover, Track tires, racing pads, etc.) We are all still waiting for somebody to generate a solid time on Nurbergring In a well-prepared model 3. @MountainPass – does this have any appeal? My personal yet to be designed track Goodie for the model 3? – A Temperature sensitive water spritzer system for the cooling system radiator, to help it keep battery and motor temperatures down in track mode. Have to believe that this could be designed and implemented for pretty modest money. Again, @MountainPass – you guys interested in developing this? Could mean that you really get something like a 50% bump in heat tolerance meaning a lot more laps before battery and motor are heat soaked.

4) Cachet value – well, let's face it, only the Italian exotics and McLaren have more cachet value than Porsche. Is this a real criteria? Yes it is any time you're spending north of $100K.

5) Value for the dollar – here's where it really gets subjective, but I think the Model 3 Performance wins this one hands down. But see #4, as cars with higher cachet value don't have to be great values to be successful in the marketplace.

6) Styling – this is where it gets impossibly subjective. The Tesla S is classically styled but looks a bit dated from the rear, I'm not a big fan of the 'panabanana' body, but they've done a pretty nice job with this - especially from the rear. I still like the Model 3's styling especially from the side and the front.

I do think the Taycan is a real throw down to Tesla to up their game on the track and particularly to update the model S, which is clearly showing its age.

What would Tesla need to do to make the Model S more fully competitive? And what could it do to support the model three as the Value proposition? The model S needs a significant an across-the-board updating and redesign, while the model 3 could benefit from a few modest tweaks and options.

1) Significant updating of the somewhat ponderous S chassis - perhaps even with some modest weight loss without loss of battery pack size or range.

2) Release of a 'Rally Sport' version of both the Model S and the Model 3, with fully adjustable shocks, significantly lowered and adjustable ride height, upgraded brakes, extreme performance/trackable tires as standard, significant upgrades to cooling and thermal regulation, especially for the S. Track mode should contain 'sliders' that allows adjustment and fine tuning of torque/hp outputs front and rear. Rally sport version of the Model 3 gets an additional 50 hp through upgraded inverter.

3) Improved quality control and especially upgraded interior materials.

4) Model S battery pack that hits the magic 400 mile EPA number, to really underscore Porsche's disadvantage there. 350 mile range in the Model 3 Next generation battery pack.

5) Tracking software built into the cars computing systems.

Am I dreaming? Well, let's hope not! What do you guys think? What would you add to this list?

Bottom line – competition makes everybody better. And Tesla has done an amazing job in both the S and now the Model 3. Let's see what Tesla does in response to Porsche's Challenge in what is obviously a first serious effort to compete with Tesla

Lost you by number 6. Remember that the new roadster directly attacks the toucan. Model S doesn't have to be a track monster (but we shall see what happens at the Ring next week) Tesla wins on all fronts really. I don't get comments about fit/finish. It's dramatically improved since 2015-16. The materials are chosen for a reason including growth of the company, not profits for upper management like Porsche nickel-dime fest. Anyone can add stitches and charge more. The point is if you don't have to and still get all the sales.

Model 3 and Y and Truck are the generators of the disruption. Elon will track a Raven next week and show Porsche just how stupid their car is for $200k.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

toucan

Haha.

Taycan:

Toucan:

Maybe we should break out the Froot Loops rather than the popcorn for next week's Model S Raven time trial around the 'Ring?

 

[Scott7]

Actually, that will probably happen in less than a year (~480 cycle 1 EA sites, plus ~180 Porsche dealerships with 350kW CCS chargers).
And when will Tesla have even 500 of these v3 chargers?

Buy a $200K car to deal with these sorts of problems charging it? Gee, where do I sign up? Just about every EA location is filled with complaints like these.

Maybe they’ll figure it out eventually but the number of stations metric is seriously misleading at the moment. Very uncommon to have any similar issue at Superchargers!

 

[Erleichda]

Porsche totally ****ed up. $1 Billion on development. Compare to Tesla.

For that amount of money, they COULD develop a car that either cannabilizes their sports cars, their CUVs or their saloon.

They pick: the saloon. OK, a Model S competitor. They want it to be better, so therefore better than their Panamera. This is a choice they have to live with, so they pick one of the LEAST likely to be purchased. Sure, they say this is the first and the CUV/SUVs are next.

The car they deliver costs over 1.6 times as much as the car that beats it on spec. This will be the metric downline as they release cheaper versions. Each cheaper Taycan will lose on specs to Tesla.

If they truly believed in EV, they would have chosen one of these options. All totally viable:

1. A premier track car to show their ultimate 911 is better as an EV. And cost $200k.
2. A track car to show it beats their best entry level sports car like the 718, but would need to be $100k max.

Neither would sell.

3. A saloon that matches the Model S.

It doesn't. It won't move the track car enthusiast 911/718. It won't move Model S buyers. It has no place among Model 3 buyers.

WTF is wrong with these people?

 

[PhantomX]

Has Porsche ever had a sales failure? I am trying to remember. The thing is, if Porsche can return a positive ROI, isn't that considered a success? It means more electric Porsche in the future!

 

[ICUDoc]

Porsche totally ****ed up

No. They have made what looks like a great car. Just not a Tesla-killer. If it were cheap, I'd buy one.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

1. A premier track car to show their ultimate 911 is better as an EV. And cost $200k.
2. A track car to show it beats their best entry level sports car like the 718, but would need to be $100k max.

Neither would sell.

Why do you think these options wouldn't sell, putting aside the practical problems of implementing them with sufficient pack size to support the performance?

In my mind (based on your sales charts), Porsche made the same "mistake" as Tesla and didn't go straight to an electric SUV/CUV. Except from what I understand it was an intentional choice on Porsche's part, while for Tesla it was just kind of shortsighted to not do the Model Y first. That Model Y would be VERY popular if it existed today (though perhaps the demand would have been so high that it would break Tesla entirely - insufficient battery supply, etc.). I don't really understand why people would buy Model Y, but I can't deny that clear reality.

 

[Erleichda]

Not so sure about the AP part. The only really useful features of Autopilot to date are lane keeping and ACC, and the Porsche has both. They also have what's probably Audi's traffic jam assist, which is an "almost" level 3 system. I guess we'll have to wait for independent test drives to see how they stack up against Autopilot.
That has been said about Porsche for decades. "Why get a 911 when you can get a Corvette for half the price?" Guess what, they are still making record profits, while GM went bankrupt and had to be bailed out. I guess they must know something we don't.

VAG isn't making record profits though. Porsche profits are from their CUV and SUVs by sales figures. Then number of track cars is so far beyond a niche as to be negligible. And yes, Corvettes suck.

Second, if you haven't built for autonomy (and I'd agree a track car is the last thing that should have it) you won't have it as it arrives in the next 2 years. You can't sit still on lane keep and cruise control, LOL.

 

[juanmedina]

 

[Erleichda]

No. They have made what looks like a great car. Just not a Tesla-killer. If it were cheap, I'd buy one.

Not great because you just said it: nobody will buy it because of price:value.

They COULD/SHOULD have made a great care that WILL sell like hotcakes. We know they could have.

They didn't That speaks volumes.