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Taycan Takedown

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by evalst2018, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. arghx7

    arghx7 Member

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    $200k for 200 miles range, shut up and take my money!
     
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  2. Paddy3101

    Paddy3101 Member

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    WHAT!!! that's ridiculous.

    So that's 490 wh/mile vs a 3 Performance rated at <250Wh/mile...

    That is virtually DOUBLE. No wonder it needs a 800V system, and big radiators. All that waste energy has to go somewhere, you can't say it's 2X less aerodynamic and all the extra energy is being dumped into drag?

    And in real-life (rather than EPA), that's going to be down in the 150 mile range!!!
     
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  3. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Efficiency Obsessed Member

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    Sorry, linking to the more relevant thread here, continued discussion of this debacle can occur there...

    Porsche Taycan EPA range
     
  4. WilliamG

    WilliamG Active Member

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    Highway speed is using the second gear I imagine so that maybe makes sense that it’s more efficient then. Either way that’s terrible efficiency.
     
  5. CarlK

    CarlK Active Member

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    Still a great car. People now have a second choice in addition to Leaf as a dedicated urban commute car. :rolleyes:
     
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  6. WilliamG

    WilliamG Active Member

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  7. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    if AMCI wants to have any validity to their numbers they should report the range for a Tesla using the same procedure.
     
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  8. Candleflame

    Candleflame Active Member

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    Sorry but I have not followed the Taycan very much. Is the "big" battery Taycan just 200 miles EPA?

    How can this be? The Porsche is meant to sell well in Europe where people cruise at 140-150 even outside Germany and even Teslas struggle to get decent range. I.e. 80 - 0% Model 3 gets about 300km. The Taycan would probably only get 150km at that speed. How is that even sellable? What happened?
     
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  9. Curious George

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    #729 Curious George, Dec 12, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
    Funny thing is, EPA range is influenced quite a bit by the car makers for their own cars.
    Does anyone remember the Hyundai-Kia story?
    Hyundai and Kia to Pay $41.2 Million over False EPA Estimates - News - Car and Driver
    Here is Ford: New Ford F-150 Lawsuit Alleges False MPG Estimates | Top Class Actions

    I think, Tesla' EPA range claims could be optimistic and Porsche is playing it safe with conservative EPA estimate.
    Luckily, there are some real range tests for EVs. Will be interesting when they do the test with Taycan.
    The electric cars with the best real-world range | Autocar

    (In miles)
    #1 Hyundai Kona 259
    #2-3 I-pace, Kia Nero 253
    #4 model 3 Performance 239
    #5 Model X 100D - 233
    #6 Tesla Model 3 long range 211
    #7 Mercedes EQC 208
    #8 Model S 75D 204
    #9 Audi etron 196
    #10 Tesla model 3 Standard range+ 181

    Disclaimer: I don't know how scientific that test was.

    PS: From EPA's site. Manufactiers do the tests. EPA confirm 15-20% results. Pretty sure they won't say anything if a manufacturer puts out conservative estimates.

    How Vehicles Are Tested
     
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  10. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Efficiency Obsessed Member

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    #730 AlanSubie4Life, Dec 12, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
    I have looked at the Autocar/Whatcar methodology (What Car? Real Range: how we work it out) before and it is suspect because it only uses a small upper portion of the battery, and it also leaves the car overnight as I recall. So it is more of a true efficiency test extrapolated to the whole battery than a range test. This also disadvantages cars with larger batteries, since charging tends to be less efficient at the very top end of battery charging, and a larger portion of the topping charge will be so affected for a vehicle with a large battery (potentially). In any case the strategy leaves a lot to be desired, relative to a full discharge test (which is what the EPA test does).

    That being said, the less efficient the car, the better it will do (%-wise) in adverse conditions. So in general the Taycan will very likely have a smaller hit (%-wise) in winter and perhaps even at high freeway speeds, than we are used to with Teslas.
     
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  11. FutureShock

    FutureShock Member

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    Pretty misleading list... at first glance, sounds like Autocar is listing the Top 10 BEVs in the market in terms of range. But they're NOT:

    Autocar (from your link): The ten cars listed here have the longest range capability of all the electric cars we have tested to date.

    Which makes sense, when you realize that the Model S they list is the 75 KWh model (discontinued for a year now), when 100 KWh models have been available for nearly three years now (with EPA ranges of as much as 373 miles!). o_O

    So basically, that list is far from comprehensive, since it doesn't reflect ALL BEVs that are available, much less the many BEV models that are releasing in the near-term. Ah well.
    .
    .
     
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  12. donkemaen

    donkemaen Member

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    Just for fun.. If we check the difference between WLTP on e-NV200 40 kW and Leaf 40 kW.
    e-NV200 gets 124 miles and the Leaf gets 177 miles. e-NV200 efficiency is 124/177= 70% of the 40kW leaf.
    upload_2019-12-12_12-8-35.png
    The e-NV200 would by EPA get about 78 MPGe combined efficiency (112*70%), Taycan should probably be a little better on the highway but by how much?
     
    • Informative x 1
  13. uujjj

    uujjj Member

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    I don't agree that What Car's methodology disadvantages cars with bigger batteries. If anything, when comparing two cars with the same rated range, the methodology seems to favor the car with the larger battery.

    I think the reason Tesla does somewhat poorly on this test is because it is done in moderately cold weather. Some of the other cars at the top of the list use heat pumps, while Tesla doesn't. (Tesla does use waste heat from the motors, though, but that doesn't help on short drives.) In the 10C to 15C temperature range of this test, a heat pump has a huge advantage over resistive heating.

    Mercedes EQC, Kia Nero, Jag I-Pace, Nissan Leaf, and Euro model (not US) Hyundai Kona all have heat pumps. I'm not sure about the Audi Etron.

    In warm weather, the Tesla's would get close to their rated range on this test. In sub-freezing weather, heat pumps lose their advantage and the range of the other cars would suffer.

    Why did they choose the 10-15C temperature range? What Car is from the UK. If you want real-world UK range, test at realistic UK temperatures.
     
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  14. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Efficiency Obsessed Member

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    It’s true that the temperature is a big factor here. I agree it may be the largest one.
     
  15. Curious George

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    Can you provide a reference to the EPA completely discharging the fully charged battery for its test, preferably on official site?
    I find it hard to believe that they are going to spend so much time driving the car for 6-8 hours to do that.

    Reading how gas EPA mpgs are sometimes wrong and manacturers get blamed for it, I think it is the automaker's responsibily to provide good estimate. Else, they risk getting sued. IIRC, in Hyundai's case, it tested in Korea which led to inaccurate results (as it said). But it is possible that EPA does something special about electric cars.

    For the red herring experts: What car full list has 20 cars. I just listed the top 10 from their list. Feel free to complete the list.
     
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  16. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Efficiency Obsessed Member

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    #736 AlanSubie4Life, Dec 12, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
    It's called a charge-depleting test. It's driven on a dyno, presumably by a computer, so the time really is not an issue. And to be clear, it is NOT the EPA that does this test! It's the manufacturer, or the manufacturer contracts with a test facility, to do the testing. For example, these tests were done at Tesla's Fremont facility. It would be completely un-American to have the EPA test the vehicles. ;)

    https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=46968&flag=1

    https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=48305&flag=1

    "SAE J1634 (as revised 2012‐10) was followed for all Range testing and SAE J2263 (as issued 1996‐10) was followed for Road load measurement"
     
    • Informative x 3
  17. Electroman

    Electroman Supporting Member

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    Has anyone in the real world has got close to 370 miles range in their S, under any conditions?
     
  18. mongo

    mongo Well-Known Member

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  19. Cirrus MS100D

    Cirrus MS100D Supporting Member

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  20. axhoaxho

    axhoaxho Member

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    Great article, thanks for sharing.

    That is impressive for the Model S Long Range -- 359 miles with 11% battery left (400 miles combined.)

     
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