-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Taycan Turbo Introduction
- Thread starter Bmac
- Start date
tstafford
Active Member
This is a good point that shouldn't be missed. Something called an ADM (additional dealer mark-up) has become common place in the Porsche world. Generally applies to GT cars and limited edition releases. Be interesting to see if ADM's apply to the Taycan - my guess is yes.
The "Turbo" designation on a Porsche no longer means it has a turbocharged engine vs a normally aspirated engine like the lesser models. A few years ago, the entire line (except the GT3/GT3RS - and obviously the Taycan) switched to turbocharged engines to meet fuel economy and emissions standards.
Essentially, "Turbo" and "Turbo S" have been co-opted by the marketing department to mean penultimate and best models in the family, respectively. Yes, it's kind of silly on an EV, but, for Porschephiles, it makes sense.
ElectricLee
Member
Yes, since the dealers want to Price gouge the every person they can. Again, why do we need dealers for an EV?
The Taycan based on paper and the design (did not change much from the concept version that got a few awards) is an amazing/expected first EV entry from a company like Porsche. However the following 4 reasons are very significant (in favor of buying a Model S or Model 3 over the Taycan) and cannot be ignored.
In the real world the faster charging speeds (in the city as there is no DC fast charging infrastructure in place to enable long distance driving), the better driving dynamics etc don't by themselves make the Taycan an objectively all around better car compared to the Model S or 3.
The Taycan is basically targeting current Porsche owners to get an electrified Panamera which is what this essentially is (aside from the cramped rear).
- There need to be lots of DC fast chargers installed on major highways so that you can actually travel in a similar fashion to a Tesla.
- Once the driver assistance systems (aka "autopilot") are significantly improved and the car is at a minimum of a second generation in a couple of years, it cannot compare to a Tesla in this regard.
- The Taycan needs to become comparable in terms of updates OTA (over the air updates, even with the occasional bugs and feature restrictions) like Teslas and lastly,
- Its a "sports sedan", but is slower than a Tesla P100D "regular sedan" and can't touch it on range.
- I wouldn't buy a first generation EV from any company even if its a Porsche. This car will be their proving ground to make an even better EV.
- Its easily $70K more expensive than a P100D................
In the real world the faster charging speeds (in the city as there is no DC fast charging infrastructure in place to enable long distance driving), the better driving dynamics etc don't by themselves make the Taycan an objectively all around better car compared to the Model S or 3.
The Taycan is basically targeting current Porsche owners to get an electrified Panamera which is what this essentially is (aside from the cramped rear).
My "Dilbert" Page-a-day desk calendar had this yesterday, just coincidentally the day of the Taycan reveal. (This is posted only for humor, not meant as a serious comment!) Sorry i could not remember how to post it as a photo so it shows up without a separate action to open the file.
whitex
Well-Known Member
You mean Taycan will come with all the advertised features working on day one, instead of trickling in over the years like Tesla, with some features never coming at all? Maybe for people who prefer that, Taycan could just disable a bunch of features and release them over time, say automatic headlights come in 6 months, automatic wipers 9 months, etc (that is how long it took to get those exact features on one of my Model S btw, so this is not a hypothetical example - this is from real life Tesla OTA experience). If you're saying you like driving unfinished Beta cars, then sure, I agree Tesla OTA is needed. I am not dissing anyone who likes to drive experimental vehicles by the way, it's just that I prefer my car to be a finished product, so Tesla OTA is not a selling point to me.
Last edited:
electricar
Member
For that kind of money I want Billionaire Doors or at a minimum Suicide Doors.
Let see, the original Model S spec design was in 2008 was prototype in 2009 and debut in at the end of 2012. At the time, BEV was cutting edge and there was no other car company out said it was possible to make a Model S. Fast forward to 2014 when the Mission E debut, Posche had half a decade of development, great financial backing and in 2020 they release a car that is similar in range to the 2013 Model S with better interior/build quality.
Btw, Android Auto/Apple car Play is a standard technology. Porsche did not create it nor is it hard to implement in any modern cars. I would argue that Tesla could give any of its cars Android Auto/Carplay if it wanted to but who knows why they're not doing it.
Here are the Con's of the Taycan:
-No hardware capabilities of having autopilot (est. 5 years behind)
-Lack of charging network (est. 5 years behind)
-Battery tech (outsourced to LG Chem) therefore, unable to add range/performance as fast as Tesla.
Pros
-Interior/build quality
-Better track days
-Theoretical faster charging time
Everything that is a Pro with Porsche can be implemented while everything with Tesla cannot. There's the differences. Yes, the Taycan is one hell of a car and any sane person would pick that over the Telsa if money and charging time didn't matter but this is 2019.
Your cons aren’t really correct since it does have what Tesla classifies as Autopilot these days. Sure it can’t be OTA updated to level 5 self driving but most ppl will have gotten rid of their cars before that would be working and legal to use anyway.
I wouldn’t say the battery tech is worse when it can handle 168 kW on average between 5 and 80 percent, thats better than the Model 3 on SuC v3, of which there are virtually none. Over in Europe they also have Ionity which in just a year has become very big, and that is 350 kW chargers which aren’t even shared between stalls.
Add some pros:
- Actual sound proofing with acoustic glass
- 4 wheel steering
- Matrix LED headlights
- Better brakes
- 360 degrees parking system
And then there are small and fun things like 40/20/40 folding seats for skitrips, nightvision, customization options with colours/interior
materials and so on.
https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/panamera/panamera-models/assistance-systems/porsche-innodrive/
This is not Autopilot, at a 100k differences it should have AP1 at the minimum.
They also have lane keep assist, which is basically what the Autopilot is, combined with adaptive cruise ofc. They also read speed signs, something Tesla does not.
Yeah, the guy I sell my car to will most likely love when they finally solve that. Unless he sold it by then I guess.
Dithermaster
Member
Lots of comparisons to Tesla, but what's significant to me is the comparisons to internal combustion Porsches, especially the Panamera. I could see the Taycan significantly taking away from Panamera sales. I'm glad Porsche did not compromise on their EV to somehow make it not do that. Good for them! And regardless of Taycan / Tesla comparisons and market successes, remember that Tesla's mission is to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy. The Taycan introduction supports that (as does I-Pace and e-tron). The more choices the better.
whitex
Well-Known Member
Well, so what you're saying is Tesla doesn't have what's considered standard technology today. How is that Taycan having less?
First, you said Taycan has less tech than 2013 Tesla. 2013 Tesla had no autopilot, so this doesn't support your argument.
Second, Taycan does have lane keeping, adaptive cruise control, they just don't call it autopilot. As for Tesla "pipedream capabilities", that is just Elon marketing BS. For example, when I bought my AP1 car, Elon said "your car will find you anywhere on private property", 5 year later, the car will drive up to 40 feet in a straight line while I hold a deadman switch - a parlor trick at best. When I bought AP2.0 car, it was supposed to have all the hardware needed to have summon across the country - we now know this was wishful thinking and AP2.0 cars can't even do dashcam function. Elon keeps selling the dream, but I suspect Taycans will be end of lifed by the time Tesla will implement FSD (as defined originally - autonomously driving for a ride sharing network, not using today's definition which consists mostly of original EAP features).
Estimated by who? Electrify America already has more fast chargers than Tesla had in 2015. They achieved that in 1 year, not 3 years like Tesla. At the current rate, they'll be on par within 1-2 years (depending on how fast Tesla will be building up).
So your argument is that Tesla will be able to sell you a new car with more range sooner than Porsche. Nothing gained really for anyone who already has one, right?
Additionally, majority of people are fine with 250-300 miles of range. Would people want more if it came at the same price, sure, would they pay extra for more, probably not. If Tesla sold a 300 mile P100DL at $100K, and 1000 mile range for $200K, I doubt many people would choose that option, because it is nice but not needed by most people (actually undesired by most people as it increases weight, therefore decreases efficiency, therefore costs more to drive).
Last edited:
@whitex i'm done making my point. Anyone can make argument with any point but the facts is that Porsche's so called "AP" is inferior to Tesla.
Model S AP > Taycan's AP (Tesla's AP at the moment isn't even that great, if you want a no hands experience try comma ai)
Tesla Charging > Electrify America (lets compare to just what we have now)
Maybe you're ok with 200-220 miles per charge at 100% SoC but anything less than 300 Miles of EV range is down right sad for a 150-200k + car with 2019 technology. Had Porsche delivered everything including range, the car would of been worth it. Range is king anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.
Model S AP > Taycan's AP (Tesla's AP at the moment isn't even that great, if you want a no hands experience try comma ai)
Tesla Charging > Electrify America (lets compare to just what we have now)
Maybe you're ok with 200-220 miles per charge at 100% SoC but anything less than 300 Miles of EV range is down right sad for a 150-200k + car with 2019 technology. Had Porsche delivered everything including range, the car would of been worth it. Range is king anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.
Similar threads
