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TBC with Two Peak TOU periods

JayClark

Member
Aug 6, 2019
223
181
Arizona
New Forum users here, waiting for my Tesla Solar/PW install to be scheduled. (4k, 4PWs).

I've seen in many posts the app settings for only using solar/PW to power the home 100% during a single peak period of a single day. I've also seen examples of setting Peak and shoulder periods. However, does the Tesla app allow for Two Peak periods to be set? In Arizona, with SRP electric, in the winter they have two Peak periods for the customer generation plan (neither is a shoulder rate, both are peak) from 5-9am, and then again from 9-5PM. Both being the same higher Peak rate, with all other periods being off peak. I don't think I've seen an example posted of setting two Peak periods during the same day for self powering - is this possible?

My apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, I've spent a few hours searching over the last couple days and going through threads but did not see this scenario covered.
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,165
5,756
Los Altos, CA
In the current software, only one Peak period is possible. I believe Tesla is aware of the issue and other things have been promised for future software, so one can only hope they will add this feature. You could call them to make sure they understand that this is a needed feature.

4kW of solar and 4 PWs is quite a size imbalance. In the USA, if you have solar you can normally only charge from solar. This will lead to the Powerwalls being significantly under-utilized for most of the year. Have you considered this?
 

Darwin

Member
Jan 12, 2018
75
95
Phoenix, Az
I'm in Arizona with SRP electric as well (5.6 kW/1 PW)

In winter, I used a single 5am to 9pm shoulder period in cost-saving mode to cover SRP's two 5am-9am and 5pm-9pm winter peak periods and it worked fairly well for my needs - for the most part. From 9am-5pm, the solar panels were usually producing enough to cover home usage and fully charge the battery before the 5pm peak period started, so it didn't matter much if 9am-5pm was an off-peak period or a shoulder period.

The only issues were rare cloudy days, where that battery would discharge in the 9am-5pm period and not quite have enough power to make it to 9pm. On a couple of those rare cloudy days, I would manually set to backup mode at 9am and then change back to Time-Based Control mode well before the 5pm peak period started. I probably wouldn't mess with doing that manual change now for the limited gain. I'm on the E-15 average demand plan, so one bad day of demand in the winter won't kill my bill.
 

JayClark

Member
Aug 6, 2019
223
181
Arizona
In the current software, only one Peak period is possible. I believe Tesla is aware of the issue and other things have been promised for future software, so one can only hope they will add this feature. You could call them to make sure they understand that this is a needed feature.

4kW of solar and 4 PWs is quite a size imbalance. In the USA, if you have solar you can normally only charge from solar. This will lead to the Powerwalls being significantly under-utilized for most of the year. Have you considered this?

I understand your comment about the imbalance, and honestly that was my first reaction too. So I post this long explanation not to convince anybody, but maybe to better help folks understand the situation in areas that have "Demand Charges" - because it drastically changes all calculations in regard to what solar truly will cost both to install, but on monthly bills, and related pay-off periods if not understood well.

I originally modeled my house usage against various size solar systems, and in the end what I settled on was by far was the best balance for my particular house here in the desert, with SRP demand charges. This system configuration was one fo the few that wouldn't cost me "MORE" money each month given SRPs demand charge structure, and how that demand period is mostly when solar is not being generated. To come to that conclusion, I have detailed house usage information (down to 5 minute increments, and by major loads), and I have tight automated control over all the major house systems (most usage by far is AC and car charging). AC is by far the largest consumer in my house, here in the Phoenix areas, AC probably 'accounts for 50% of all the power I use during the year, and most of that comes is in 3-4 months of the summer and then I do nearly no AC or heating for the other 8 months of the year because of the way my house is situated and built - I guess.

With this information in hand, and because SRP has a very high demand charge during Peak periods in addition to the normally expected higher hourly peak rates, the fastest payback period is accomplished by insuring that I have enough PW to cover weekday Peak usage (in summer it's 2-8pm mon-fri), and only "just" enough solar to refresh the Powerwalls to cover the peak periods for minimal AC and dinner/cooking usage on Peak, during in the peak summers months. If I add just a tiny bit more solar than I need to cover peak, the I can never break even (explained below when talking about off-peak rates). In winter, about 8 months out of the year, my house uses around 18-20kw/day (3600 sqr/ft house), plus 20kWhrs usually for car charging, but with AC usage in summer it soars to 140-150kw for 10-20 days out of the year. I work from home, so does my wife so the house needs to remain reasonably comfortable during peak hours. So, with on demand charge regimes from 2-8pm, one bad day in the whole month will blow up the bill - easily adding $25-400 to the monthly bill for one high 30 minute period of usage.

In addition, to cover for cloudy days, or for odd days where peak usage is particularly high for what ever reason that we can't avoid for a given 30 minute period, I spec'd the PW to handle up to 3 days of peak usage, with peak usage normally coming in at 16kWhrs during those worst summer months in my reasonably optimized experimenting with the house usage. This system, against these requirements, turned out to better balance in regard to system costs than getting more solar than the battery can store, in which case that extra solar goes to cover off-peak and really never goes to Peak offset just because of the timing of the Peak period. Sending it to the grid has no reasonable or good paypack model (again, explained below a little more). Because it's a 54kWhr PW system, with only 4k solar, I'll be counting on banking solar on the weekends, to get to 100%, knowing that through out the week, after each days peak usage I may on some days use slightly more that what Solar can replenish, and or or a cloud day could cause less solar than what's need to replenish the PW for the next day.

Hopefully that all makes sense. I have fairly detailed analysis, and have done dry runs with the house as if I was on Solar/Summer peak plan for SRP, so I know how far I can optimize actual house usage realistically during peak and off-peak perids, and from there I know the size of the solar system I need, and the size of the powerwall needed to cover the hours where solar is not producing. From there the calculations are fairly straightforward forward.

On the flip side, if a person can eliminate all peak usage like this system should do for my house, then demand charges are zero, and hourly peak charges are zero. Once Peak usage & Peak Demand are covered, then it's on to analyzing SRP off-peak rates, usage, and payback for all other house power usage. SRP Off-peak rates on solar are so extremely low that car charging and other major actives like electric drier, etc will only be run during off peak during the worst summer months, never using solar. In fact, the off peaks are so low that when I try to design any Solary/PW system to offset any portion of the off-peak usage there is no a pay-off or break-even point that occurs before my wife and will die (hopefully at least 40+ years off from now) (SRP off peak kWh rates are between 0.036 and 0.041 per kWh on the solar generation plan depending on season).

So, having said that, I'm not in this just for the money, I'm also doing this to be part of making a better world and environment, and to get there by supporting the innovative solar/battery companies, and finally, by doing so also doing my part to drive down costs for others down the road. I believe it's the right thing to do, so that's primarily why I'm doing it. And I do want to eventually drive on Sunlight, in addition to Saving $2500-2700 on my yearly electric bill as should be the case with the system as I've spec'd it, and more savings if I ever get an electric car with more range than our Volt. However, this system is the first step for me, optimized from a financial perspective as best I can "for now" until I can see how it actually performs. I fully intend to add more solar once I see where I land with the current system, even if not totally cost effective. I want to see how close, or far off my numbers and assumptions come in, and then I'll decide where to from there.
 
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miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,165
5,756
Los Altos, CA
@JayClark did I miss it? In Post #1 you said Peak is 5-9am and 5-9pm. In Post #4 you said Peak is M-F 2pm-8pm. Is the first one the per kWh Peak price times and the second one the Demand Charge window? If so, that is very strange. Or is it Winter vs. Summer schedules?
 

JayClark

Member
Aug 6, 2019
223
181
Arizona
I'm in Arizona with SRP electric as well (5.6 kW/1 PW)

In winter, I used a single 5am to 9pm shoulder period in cost-saving mode to cover SRP's two 5am-9am and 5pm-9pm winter peak periods and it worked fairly well for my needs - for the most part. From 9am-5pm, the solar panels were usually producing enough to cover home usage and fully charge the battery before the 5pm peak period started, so it didn't matter much if 9am-5pm was an off-peak period or a shoulder period.

The only issues were rare cloudy days, where that battery would discharge in the 9am-5pm period and not quite have enough power to make it to 9pm. On a couple of those rare cloudy days, I would manually set to backup mode at 9am and then change back to Time-Based Control mode well before the 5pm peak period started. I probably wouldn't mess with doing that manual change now for the limited gain. I'm on the E-15 average demand plan, so one bad day of demand in the winter won't kill my bill.

Excellent information, very helpful. I look forward to giving that a try, hopefully they add the ability for setting multiple hard self-powered periods, but sounds like that should work for now.

What you mentioned about on some days not quite having enough is exactly why I I oversized the PW situation so I can bank solar on the weekend for the rest of the week to cover cloud days and such. Also... because I do plan on promoting out of the volt to a teslas soon, and might need to occasionally charge during peak when it's otherwise not needed to run the house.
 

JayClark

Member
Aug 6, 2019
223
181
Arizona
@JayClark did I miss it? In Post #1 you said Peak is 5-9am and 5-9pm. In Post #4 you said Peak is M-F 2pm-8pm. Is the first one the per kWh Peak price times and the second one the Demand Charge window? If so, that is very strange. Or is it Winter vs. Summer schedules?


Oh, sorry I wasn't clear. During Summer Peak months, half the year, which will be my most challenging months for solar the peak period is 2-8. The other half of the year there is a winter regime with the 5-9am and then 5-9pm peak periods. Winter really won't be an issue interns of system capacity taking into account banking on weekends (and if it is I'll add more solar if truly needed), but I was curious about how best to configure the system if there is not a mode that allows for setting two true peak periods.
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,165
5,756
Los Altos, CA
Ok. Understood now. My recommendation is to follow @Darwin in the winter with a single shoulder period during the day encompassing both Peak periods then overnight and all weekend Off-Peak. Then in the Summer, set the Peak schedule to coincide with the one Peak and then set the rest to Off-Peak.

I'm sure that Tesla will eventually allow setting more than one Peak period. They just started with a very California-centric mindset.

If you really only consume 16kWh during peak each day, your planned system should be able to eliminate your Peak usage during the Summer season.

During the Winter, my 4.3kW solar cannot cover my Peak usage because on a full sunny day in the dead of Winter it only generates 5kWh. So, for about 3-4 months, it's bouncing off the Reserve level every day.
 

JayClark

Member
Aug 6, 2019
223
181
Arizona
...During the Winter, my 4.3kW solar cannot cover my Peak usage because on a full sunny day in the dead of Winter it only generates 5kWh. So, for about 3-4 months, it's bouncing off the Reserve level every day.

Thank you for the feedback. Yes, it sounds like I may be be in that situation too in winter, I'll have to watch that closely, and maybe add solar sooner that I thought. I'm hoping charging over the weekend will give me enough slack in the PW to make it through the winter peak hours where we mostly only use 400-700 watts per hours during peak with no AC running (and no kids in the house anymore) but in the evening 5-7pm period if we do some cooking - which isn't very often since we're usually ready to get out of the house in the evenings - it could be more like 2-3 kWh's for an hour or so. Buy if the system only generates slightly over 4, or less, that probably is going to put me at a shortage even with another 8-10 kWh's put into the PW during the weekend. I'll have to keep an eye on that for sure, and may have to put up 1000kWhr of PV optimized for winter collection.
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,165
5,756
Los Altos, CA
Even though I have a high efficiency natural gas furnace for heat, the electric use in winter due to running the forced air is significant. My Winter solar output is lower than normal because I have far-away trees that only cast shadow on the panels in the Winter. My Summer Peak to Winter trough is more than 5:1 kWh per day. That is, more than 25kWh/day Summer and less than 5kWh/day Winter. Also, my Peak period is 7 hours (2-9pm). 7 hours at 650W is already 4.55kWh and that doesn't count any lighting or appliance use when we come home in the evening.

I would encourage you to do more solar at the start if you can swing it. Adding more solar later is a huge hassle.
 
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JayClark

Member
Aug 6, 2019
223
181
Arizona
I'm in Arizona with SRP electric as well (5.6 kW/1 PW)
.

Darwin, can you tell me how much your 5.6 kW system produces in Arizona on a typical clear day at mid-winter, and are your panels south facing at a typical roof top angle? I'm guessing that would give me a pretty good idea of what I'd run into in summer here. Thx.
 

Darwin

Member
Jan 12, 2018
75
95
Phoenix, Az
Darwin, can you tell me how much your 5.6 kW system produces in Arizona on a typical clear day at mid-winter, and are your panels south facing at a typical roof top angle? I'm guessing that would give me a pretty good idea of what I'd run into in summer here. Thx.

My panels are southwest facing (225 degrees) and roof tilt is around 18 degrees. On a typical clear day in December, the system produces around 20 kWh. Last December it produced about 500kWh over the month.

You can review the entire output history here.
 

Kenne74

Member
Mar 6, 2013
131
31
Arizona
I would recommend more solar and 3PW. It's going to be a pain to charge those 4PW up every day. I have 7.7kw and it takes on average 5-6hrs to charge 2 of them..

I don't think you will fully eliminate your demand with that setup, but hey I've been wrong lots before.
 

Darwin

Member
Jan 12, 2018
75
95
Phoenix, Az
@JayClark, one potential risk area with your set-up is with how well Tesla's software will manage your demand, solar and PW battery reserve over a full-week period. It may work fine, but if you use Tesla's Time-Based Control mode setting, you will be reliant on the Powerwall software to do the right so that the batteries can make it through the entire week. Unfortunately, Tesla does not necessarily provide the tools to let you simply schedule the battery mode as you would expect.

From my experience, Time-Based Control mode with a shoulder period for peaks hours works fairly well, but in my opinion, it tries to be too smart and does sub-optimal things for my demand management needs. It sometimes uses solar to cover home usage in off-peak instead of charging the battery, and occasionally discharges in off-peak. It's also not as quick to respond to grid demand as self-powered mode is.

Trading a Powerwall for more solar as @Kenne74 suggests could help manage some of that risk since it would allow you to give the batteries a much larger boost each day. On the down-side of course, you won't have as much power if you need to charge a car and run your AC's during peak hours after the sun sets...

What I would like (and what I think is optimum for simple demand management) is to simply schedule the PW "Backup-Only" mode during SRP's off-peak period, and schedule "Self-Powered" mode during SRP's 2-8PM peak period. That would be optimal if the end goal is to only discharge the battery to maintain zero net usage/zero demand during peak utilty hours. This is almost what TBC with shoulder only does, but without the uneccesary 'smarts'. I wrote a Powerwall scheduler for the SmartThings Hub to do exactly this, but that also has its own issues as it can take quite a while for the Powerwall to process mode change commands.
 
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Chancellor32

Member
May 10, 2018
711
479
Queen Creek, AZ
I plan to do just as Darwin said and make it just one shoulder period. I’m not too worried because from 5-9am I barely used any power anyways. As long as battery is fully charged before 5pm I think we will be ok. Hopefully Tesla’s comes out with two shoulders/peak periods before November rolls around.
 
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Dec 2, 2017
358
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Arizona
@JayClark, how much electricity do you use during the SRP 2-8pm peak period? I’m also planning to try to mitigate peak demand via Powerwall here in AZ but figure it should be possible for me to get through peak with 8 KW and 2 PW on ~3200 square feet, even on most cloudy days. For example on Tuesday (mostly cloudy) my house used 23.4kWh during peak, so two full PW with 27kWh could have carried the peak.

The system @Darwin uses generated 7.5kWh before 2 pm that day, 11.2 during peak and 18.8 total, so an 8 kW system could do maybe 11kWh before 2 pm, 16 during peak, and 27 for the day. It would be close, but I think 8kW and 2 PW might sustain repeated days like Tuesday indefinitely when it comes to peak mitigation if the PW software did the right thing.

Obviously your situation is different which is why I’d like to compare your peak demand. When it comes time for selling the house, I also figure solar could boost perceived home value more than batteries, but who knows?
 

Chancellor32

Member
May 10, 2018
711
479
Queen Creek, AZ
@JayClark, how much electricity do you use during the SRP 2-8pm peak period? I’m also planning to try to mitigate peak demand via Powerwall here in AZ but figure it should be possible for me to get through peak with 8 KW and 2 PW on ~3200 square feet, even on most cloudy days. For example on Tuesday (mostly cloudy) my house used 23.4kWh during peak, so two full PW with 27kWh could have carried the peak.

The system @Darwin uses generated 7.5kWh before 2 pm that day, 11.2 during peak and 18.8 total, so an 8 kW system could do maybe 11kWh before 2 pm, 16 during peak, and 27 for the day. It would be close, but I think 8kW and 2 PW might sustain repeated days like Tuesday indefinitely when it comes to peak mitigation if the PW software did the right thing.

Obviously your situation is different which is why I’d like to compare your peak demand. When it comes time for selling the house, I also figure solar could boost perceived home value more than batteries, but who knows?
Totally possible, I have had zero demand from 2-8pm from my 1PWc battery software works extremely well.
 
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JayClark

Member
Aug 6, 2019
223
181
Arizona
@JayClark, how much electricity do you use during the SRP 2-8pm peak period? I’m also planning to try to mitigate peak demand via Powerwall here in AZ but figure it should be possible for me to get through peak with 8 KW and 2 PW on ~3200 square feet, even on most cloudy days. For example on Tuesday (mostly cloudy) my house used 23.4kWh during peak, so two full PW with 27kWh could have carried the peak.

The system @Darwin uses generated 7.5kWh before 2 pm that day, 11.2 during peak and 18.8 total, so an 8 kW system could do maybe 11kWh before 2 pm, 16 during peak, and 27 for the day. It would be close, but I think 8kW and 2 PW might sustain repeated days like Tuesday indefinitely when it comes to peak mitigation if the PW software did the right thing.

Obviously your situation is different which is why I’d like to compare your peak demand. When it comes time for selling the house, I also figure solar could boost perceived home value more than batteries, but who knows?


Seems like you should be fine. I think I lean towards "overkill" usually, so that's just me. And the battery is where I did the overkill since that seems to be the harder thing for me to add later, but also avoiding peak charges, and prioritizing toward erring toward extra battery capacity are my top priorities. I feel like I have more control over battery capacity and doling out the usage, vs the control (or lack there of) that I have over solar production based on weather and such. So I'd rather build the buffer into the battery end of things and use production averaging (including weekend production) to size the solar. For instance, jumping to 6k system but with only two Powerwalls actually had a negative impact in terms of payback for me based on my usage patterns as compared to doubling the battery size from 25kWhrs to 50kWhrs, and sticking with a 4k pv system, given the my particular house and power usage needs. Having said that, I will add panels eventually regardless, just for my own peace of mind. Sorry for the preamble, so to your actual question...

So, when using pre-cooling during the worst of summer, I still end up using about 14-18kWhrs
during the 2-8 peak on these 105+ degree days, but with the 54kWhrs of battery I'll have more than enough to cover peak, and peak is primarily what I want to cover 100% no matter what. Our off-peak is so cheap it makes no sense to use up battery cycles to cover off-peak usage. If after the battery is full I'm fine with extra solar going back to grid but charging battery for use only during Peak coverage will always be the priority.

When we're hosting/entertaining during peak summer days (usually Fridays), I find we're closer to 20-22k (depending on how hot it is outside) of peak usage no matter how careful I try to be - the house simply has to be cooler with lots of people, and cooking going on, usually all the lights are on, a couple fountains are running, etc. Most of this type of stuff is only off peak usage otherwise. I have a "Peak" mode, and a "Party" modes configured on my home automation system. Peak mode aggressively turns all high watt items off, well really almost everything off, even if somebody turns them on during peak, my system turns them right back off. If my wife and I are both out of our home office, which happens once or twice a week during the day, then the house temp is allowed to rise, and on those days my 2-8pm peak usage is only about 10kWhrs, but that's usually only once or twice a week, and on those days we end up eating out together since we don't want to go home until we can cool the place down! Ha!, and we eat out a lot anyway since we both work and all the kids are out of the house. :)

In the winter, during the 5-9am and 9-5pm peak times (am/pm), we use 7-10kWhrs at most (usually between 400-900 watts per hour) because I don't have to run the AC at all with my house during those hours. Although if my wife turns on her hair dryer or straighter in the morning I might have 30 minutes that average 1500-2000 watts in there somewhere during the morning hours.

If anybody is curious about pre-cooling in the desert, I've been doing some dry runs and measuring my usage under different scenarios, because I can't have the house warm at all during summer since I work at home as does my wife, and we have clients at the house at times, so I end up pre-cooling around from 5 or 6am until 8am (hotter forecast days I start it at 5am). The house cools down faster when it's coolest outside. then I pre-cool again from 12:30-2pm (SRPs peak starts at 2pm). With the pre-cooling, when peak hours hit, because of the battery I'll be able to run the AC in the house for 30-40 minutes every hour (when it's 108-115) outside and we've found the house stays reasonably cool until 8pm, maybe gets up to 77-78 degrees by 8pm because 30-40 minutes of AC running each hour isn't quite enough to keep up so the inside temperature creeps up on average from starting at or near 70 degrees at 2pm up to about 78 worst case usually by 8pm. I know this sounds crazy, but I pre-cool to 69-70 degrees in the early am for 2-3 hours - cools the house slab and granite countertops tops very nicely, and quickly, during the cool morning hours and it seems to help the house feel cooler the rest of the day. When the temp outside during early hours is around 70-80degress outside vs 110-115 at peak afternoon, the air-condition works quickly when it's cool outside, and not so well once it gets above 108-110. I don't pre-cool again until the next days early hours.

Most importantly, with 54kwhr battery I should be able to cover "entertaining days", and/or make it through a couple cloudy days, or unexpected high peak usage days (usually Fridays when we have family and friends over as often as not). It will requiring charging all weekend probably to get back to 100% with only a 4k pv system, and during the worst of summer that may not be quite possible to get back all the way to 100 over the weekend - we'll see (if so I'll add more panels). If it seems like after Monday or Tuesday we're trending high on our battery usage during peak hours, then maybe I should be able to do minor rationing of power on for a day or so if needed and cut AC back to 25-30 minutes each hour vs closer to 45 minutes for a day or so - which again, I can do with a toggle on the home automation system. I'm not doing the demand averaging plan because the off-peak hourly usage charges are higher (almost what the non-solar ez3 plan rates are), so I calculated the best value for my $s to be insuring I use 0 watts during peak hours Monday-Friday no matter what. One bad day blows the bill for the whole month with SRPs aggressive demand plan, but the payoff is huge if I can zero the demand hours out, so I'm going a little overboard on the batteries for that reason. Also since for 6 months of the year I'll hardly exercise the battery I figure it will last a longer than for folks that fully cycle their battery(s) every day based on my experience with electric cars so far. I should only be fully fully cycling the battery the equivalent of 2-3 times per week, and only for about 12-14 weeks out of the year - plus have significant power outage backup when needed most of the time - but which is rarely needed around here to be perfectly honest. In 3 years of living here the powers maybe been out 2 times, an only once more than a few hours, the other time it was minutes.

Last bit of info and "theory" about the way I spec'd the system is in regard to lithium battery health. It's well established that topping off lithium batteries has implications in terms of degrading battery life expectancy more quickly (though still great compared to other chemistries). Fully cycling the battery (from empty to full) also has battery health implications. It's also well established that running the battery to the low end of it's capacity also has life expectancy implications for lithium batteries, but maybe not as much so as always topping them off. Final factor for me, is lithium batteries can be safely charged faster at the lower ends of their capacity with less impact to the health of the battery, therefore can better make use of the incoming solar charge when less than 65-70% full. For all these reasons, I've heavily tilted the design of the system at my house so that with each passing day over the course of a single week the battery is slightly "less full" than the day before so that I'm at most only topping the system off once a week on the weekend. Also, on any given day I should only normally (on average) be cycling about 20-25 or less of the battery capacity, with every day that cycle being shifted ever more toward the middle to lower end of it's capacity range (on average) where the battery would prefer to be for best wear and tear. Take that with a grain of salt but there is fairly extensive research to back these principles up, and this is one investment worth maximizing.

Installation day for me is Sept 11th!
 
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