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Tech Package: Not so tech?

Discussion in 'Model S: User Interface' started by dflye, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. dflye

    dflye S Sig Perf 414, VIN 814

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    The $3,750 "Tech Package" includes a bunch of features that aren't really "tech" so much as just random options Tesla apparently wanted to bundle with desirable features.

    Features that are either non-tech or should be included with any Model S:
    • Convenience lighting (vs inconvenience lighting as the standard?)
    • Automatic keyless entry
    • Homelink
    • High definition back-up camera (camera upgrade cost should be minimal)
    Features that are reasonable a-la-carte for a few hundred each:
    • Xenon headlamps (ow, my eyes!)
    • Electrochromatic side mirrors (to defend against those xenon bulbs!)
    • Power rear liftgate
    Features that are utter BS:
    • LED foglights (How often do you drive around with the foglights on? Does LED vs Xenon vs anything else really make a huge difference? If so, make the best one the standard purely for safety purposes!)
    The only remaining feature left that seems both "tech" and worthy of a line-item choice by itself:

    • Turn-by-turn navigation with seven years of free map updates
    And unfortunately here is where I have serious issues. Up to this point, all of the tech package features are either fluff, should be included with all Model S vehicles, or are options I'd pay for a-la-carte (which is where your fluff may be my a-la-carte or vice-versa)

    However, once we get to the "turn-by-turn navigation" I'm starting to have serious reservations about the value and quality Tesla is delivering.

    From a long email exchange with Tesla, it appears that a POI (Points of interest) database is not actually part of the "seven years of free map updates"; the only way to get to POI data is through google. So better hope you are in cell range when you are out in BFE trying to find the next facility of any type.

    If it wasn't for the fact that the tech package is included in a Signature Model S, I'd likely pass, as it sounds like a lot of overpriced fluff with only a few bones to fill out the frame and make it seem legit.

    The email back and forth with Tesla made it apparent that the navigation system is visual fluff that works in the city, but don't count on much when you are out in BFE, which is when you really want your navigation system to shine!
     
  2. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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  3. dflye

    dflye S Sig Perf 414, VIN 814

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    Thanks for the link to a thread that a relatively newbie such as myself may have not yet perused.

    However, that thread does not seem to address my concern that the navigation system is entirely dependent upon google for POI data.

    From my conversation with Tesla, you will absolutely, positively have zero percent chance of locating the nearest POI of ANY kind if you cannot connect to google, whether you have the tech package or not.

    The Tesla rep stated in no uncertain terms that there were no POI stored in the navigation system, it is entirely dependent upon google.

    For those staying in the city, not an issue.
    For someone like me who likes to visit those places far outside any city and would like to be able to find the nearest restaurant when out in BFE... apparently the Model S will NOT deliver. :cursing:
     
  4. MikeK

    MikeK R#129, TSLA shareholder

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    I generally get better cell coverage in BFE than I get in the San Francisco Bay Area. It is a bit puzzling that the database doesn't have POI info in it. I can understand why they're probably thinking that Google is the way to go, but you have a point about needing data coverage.

    As far as I'm concerned, the rest of what you call "fluff" does qualify as "tech". I would never, ever own a car again that didn't have hands-free unlock, entry and start. That by itself is worth the price of admission, and there's not another feature on the list that I would drop, with the possible exception of the power lift gate.
     
  5. dflye

    dflye S Sig Perf 414, VIN 814

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    Exactly, that is why I put the ones you explicitly enumerated in the first list of "non-tech or should be included with any Model S"!

    Who wants a car like the Model S without those features? Hertz Rent-A-Dent?

    The point I was attempting to make, for the features that are so basic or commonly requested that the majority of purchasers must have those features, including them in a package that has a bunch of overpriced and/or unwanted features is just going right back to the traditional dealer franchise model of only having vehicles on the lot that just happen to always have that package. Which makes it less of an option, and more of extortion.
     
  6. ManuVince

    ManuVince Member

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    If Navigon is one of the top satnav maker, and has the reputation of being as good as TomTom. I can't believe there is no POI in its database. Nowadays, ALL turn by turn satnav I have seen have POI.
    Check Navigon website you ill see even the most basic of their devices do have POI.

    Tesla rep some times get stuff wrong, so be careful on drawing conclusions.
     
  7. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    We've had this discussion before, but I don't have the thread handy. I'll try to summarize.

    You're making a leap here. Tesla is betting that there are customers that will find a base Tesla compelling at the price point (especially after the $7,500 rebate). Anything you add to that base model raises the price of that model and, correspondingly, makes it less compelling. It's simply a numbers game.
     
  8. dflye

    dflye S Sig Perf 414, VIN 814

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    I find it hard to believe myself, as Navigon has Garmin backing them (and I've had excellent interactions with Garmin in the past) and as you state, the POI database is usually a freebie along for the ride with the turn-by-turn data. Usually the only time the POI database is reduced is due to storage or bandwidth issues on the host device.

    Which does put the onus back on Tesla, and unfortunately I went multiple rounds with a rep (with several requests to just pass the question on to the engineer(s) working on navigation integration), so I have to go with the belief that a POI database is just not going to be loaded in my Model S on delivery. :mad:
     
  9. dflye

    dflye S Sig Perf 414, VIN 814

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    Well, I guess I may be in the minority in that I plan to drive my Model S places where cell service varies between spotty and nonexistent, and still expect that my navigation system can actually navigation to find nearby POI.

    If it can't, sure, I've got a TomTom that can, but I would be extremely disappointed if the $3,750 tech package can't include the functionality of a $100 GPSr!
     
  10. AustinPowers

    AustinPowers Total Smeghead

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    Are you serious or joking? Isn't that total and utter fluff?
    I approach my car, press the button on the key, it unlocks, I get in, stick the key in its place and turn it to ignite the ICE. All in all the process takes less than ten seconds and no hard labor whatsoever.

    How is not having to press one button and turning a key alone worth thousands of dollars :confused:

    Now if the doors would swing open by themselves, little elves would come, lift me up, place me on the seat and put on my safety belt - THAT would be worth some cash :tongue:
     
  11. ChrisgG

    ChrisgG Member

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    Nope it isn't, I bought my prius 7 years ago with a full package. navigation system, bluetooth phone, voice control of many things in the car and keyless driving.

    From all those the keyless driving is the thing I'd miss most. I realised it as my key ran out of battery and I finally had to put it in the 'keyhole' again.. is it worth 3k ? probably not if you think rationally.. but then no car is worth 100k then..

    Also that the navigationsystem is dependant on the internet is really really bad. It sure is ok for people in the US, where their country is huge and therefore their mobile plan will work everywhere. But here in europe? If I drive for 30 minutes I can be throu 4 different countries. If I use my Data on my mobile phone in an other country 1 MB cost me 6 Sfr. So I can't be 'on line' all the time.
     
  12. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    It's pretty obvious you've never had a car with a system like that. I thought it was fluff until I had a car with it. Now it's something that I would never do without. There are two situations that it handles better than anything else:

    1. It's pouring rain and you have a couple of bags of groceries. No fishing in your pocket for keys while you get drenched. Just open the door and go.

    2. You've put something in the rear and laid your keys on the rear mat. You then close the hatch/trunk and oops. Because the fob never leaves your pocket (or purse) this situation never arises.

    I don't say that it's worth thousands, but it's sure worthwhile getting. For me this is a must-have.
     
  13. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    I'm old enough to remember when people said the exact same thing about halogen lights. Properly adjusted HID lights don't glare. I would rather have LED lights though.

    Nonsense. Mostly to defend against SUVs where the lights are mounted high and usually misaligned as well.

    LEDs last longer and use less electricity than other lights so both range and maintenance costs are affected. I'd prefer the LEDs to be headlights because the laws in most North American jurisdictions require the main lights to be on when the fog light are on which destroys the value of fog lights. In the VW TDI that, thankfully, I no longer have the fog lights were useful because the main lights were always burning out (at least one bulb per month).
     
  14. ChrisgG

    ChrisgG Member

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    I agree, keyless driving doesn't sound like much. But from all the 'new' stuff my prius had 7 years ago, the keyless driving and the navigation system are the only things I'd miss. the not searching for the key, the not having to have 2 key-rings so they don't make too much noise when driving.... it all sounds like nothing.. and then it feels so right.

    That the Navigation system uses the Internet is a very bad Idea for many people in europe. I can drive through 4 different countries within 30 minutes from where I live. 2 of them will have roaming costs wich makes 1MB cost like 6-7$. All the online and cloud stuff might work if you live in a big country wich you never leave by car. But here it sucks. Especialy as the phone companies are not able to have an acceptable plan outside your country.
     
  15. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    I actually agree, after having a smart key system, I would never go back
    I also thought it was a cute toy until we got a car with it.
    My wife loves it as she puts the car fob in her purse and never needs to dig it out. When carrying items it makes it makes it much more convenient.
    I have talked with people who feel much more secure with the system in place.
    However, if you get right down to it, remotes of any variety are fluff. Why not just have a key. It isn't that big of a deal is it?
    The level of convenience is just head and shoulders above the alternative.
     
  16. AustinPowers

    AustinPowers Total Smeghead

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    Indeed I never had a car with that feature, and if I have to pay extra just for that feature then I will never have a car with it.

    re 1. ) It's pretty obvious you don't go to a supermarket with parking garage. No problem with pouring rain.

    re 2. ) I've made it a habit to never ever do that. And as I press the button on the key only after I have closed all doors / hatches I can't have left the key in the locked car. So far in my 18 years of driving I didn't have a problem.


    I agree it might seem comfortable, but I am much more concerned about the safety issues (see the other thread about keyless thefts) that come with a keyless entry and start feature.
     
  17. Adm

    Adm Active Member

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    I just checked for the Netherlands and I can get 8GgB/month for €30,=/month (36 months), 21.6 mBit/s down and 5.8 mBit/s up. Every MB over the limit costs €0.08. Every MB outside the Netherlands in the EU/EER costs €2.00 per MB or for an extra €5.00 per month you pay €1.00 per MB. Still a rip off in my book.

    However, for €10,= per month extra you can get 100MB for use outside the Netherlands (in EU/EER) (€0.10/MB). When you have used up this 100MB you get a text message to warn you, but also the option to buy an extra 100MB at €10,=.

    No clue how much the navigation uses, but it's a much lower price than you mentioned.
     
  18. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Supermarkets in Texas don't have parking garages, they have parking lots. And when it rains, it's often gallons per second per m[SUP]3.[/SUP]


    In 40 years of driving it hasn't happened that often, but it's not zero either.

    That appears to be limited to Mercedes--and perhaps just one professional theft ring, so it's only a concern if Tesla is using a Mercedes security ECU (which they might be). You can say the same thing about garage door remotes but the local police department tells me (during one of their community programs) they have never had an instance of it (and I live in the ninth largest city in the U.S. so it's not like I'm in some low crime area). I don't put this high on my list of worries.
     
  19. William13

    William13 Member

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    I would say the tech package is total fluff. I want everything in it, but it is fluff. I will enjoy each feature but had none until my 2004 Prius. Yes I am willing to pay for leaving my key in my pocket!!!! I miss that on the 2010 Malibu I bought as a placeholder for the Tesla nearly three years ago.

    One can drive successful without all those gizmos. A map and serendipity will lead you to POIs that are not yet in Google, especially if you are in an area without cell coverage.

    I expect that Tesla will work to find a solution for Europe that is not too expensive. It may help to have this issue brought up with George who is in Europe right now. It helps to be ahead of the curve so that Tesla can find solutions.
     
  20. goyogi

    goyogi Member

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    A simple software update would fix the POI issue. I'm sure GeorgeB is reading and will have this put on the engineers list. Also remember there is an 'app' section where an app can be written to make the S even more useful. It'll be exciting to see what people develop for it.
     

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