Tech Package: Not so tech?

[dsm363]

Agree 100%!

I got keyless entry on my Leaf for the first time and would never want to revert.

To pay for convenience lights ... that's insulting.

I think, seriously, that the more these "gimmicks" unfold over the next year, MANY reservation holders will walk.

One thing that has me on the fence is this "ever so important" announcement that we've all been waiting for ... for how long ... about "it will all make sense" ... the presumed proprietary public charging infrastructure.

And with the recent fighting in these forums, it's getting less and less appealing.

They could include the tech package in the base price and raise the base price $3,750 I guess:smile:. That would probably make people happier. They had advertised a $50,000 base price and must have felt they needed to take these things out to make their target price. I don't see this as a gimmick. Yes it would have been nice if it all was standard and under $50k but it is not. Homelink should have been included in the base price but there is nothing wrong or unusual about them putting some desirable features in a package in order to try and maximize their profit. BMW charges $1,000 just for the automatic keyless entry but you can buy it as a stand alone option.

 

[Norbert]

It didn't become quite clear in this thread, as far as I can tell, that the Tech package includes locally stored maps, and doesn't require internet access. (maybe we should inquire if that is still the case).

Whereas Google navigation without the tech package does require internet access.

Like other car companies do, probably to minimize the thousands of possible combinations, and also to make sure that those customers who want more features also get those features whose usefulness isn't as obvious on the day of purchase, they bundle several somewhat unrelated features together in a package. And perhaps also to avoid having to discuss each little option endlessly with each customer. That's of course unfortunate for those who are interested in only one of them. But that's how it is. The deal has to work for both sides.

 

[brianman]

They could include the tech package in the base price and raise the base price $3,750 I guess. That would probably make people happier.

"I'm happier if you make things I want required so that everybody has to pay it."

If this is true, it would support "consumers are stupid" assertions IMO.

I'll hold off saying more because it reminds me of recent political discussions too much.

 

[100thMonkey]

this is what I was told was the difference... excellent post BTW!

It didn't become quite clear in this thread, as far as I can tell, that the Tech package includes locally stored maps, and doesn't require internet access. (maybe we should inquire if that is still the case).

Whereas Google navigation without the tech package does require internet access.

Like other car companies do, probably to minimize the thousands of possible combinations, and also to make sure that those customers who want more features also get those features whose usefulness isn't as obvious on the day of purchase, they bundle several somewhat unrelated features together in a package. And perhaps also to avoid having to discuss each little option endlessly with each customer. That's of course unfortunate for those who are interested in only one of them. But that's how it is. The deal has to work for both sides.

 

[dsm363]

"I'm happier if you make things I want required so that everybody has to pay it."

If this is true, it would support "consumers are stupid" assertions IMO.

I'll hold off saying more because it reminds me of recent political discussions too much.

I didn't say I'd be happier or that I wanted things included so other people have to pay for them. Just that some people are not happy with having to add back certain features they feel should be included. If Tesla had raised the price and included them then they would have to take it at that price or not. I think having the option is a good thing. The point was you pay for something if you get it. Tesla had to leave certain things out to hit their target price.

I added a smiley face to the sentence you quoted. That should make the intent more clear since it wasn't I guess.

 

[brianman]

I didn't say I'd be happier or that I wanted things included so other people have to pay for them.

Yah, I didn't read that you felt that way. But the way you phrased it captured perfectly what it seemed some people were asking for.

 

[smorgasbord]

"Keyless entry" is a misnomer. No Model S has a physical key. It has a Fob.

Without the Tech Package, you have to push a button to unlock the car. Hopefully that will present the door handles. I've heard the car can be programmed to unlock all doors on one press, or only the driver's door on the first press with all doors on a second-within-some-time-limit press.

With the Tech Package, you don't even need to press a button to unlock the doors and have the handles presented. Fun, but it's like George Jetson complaining about all that button pushing making his work day tiring. (sorry, couldn't find obligatory YouTube video).

The package should really be called a "Convenience Package":
It's more convenient to not have to push a button to unlock the car.
It's more convenient to have ambient lighting inside the car at night.
It's more convenient to have more song storage onboard rather than have a USB stick.
It's more convenient to have 7 years of map updates instead of 2, and to have POIs stored locally, etc.
It's more convenient to have built-in Homelink instead of a garage door opened clipped to your visor.
It's more convenient to have side mirrors that dim automatically instead of squinting your eyes.
It's more convenient to have the rear liftgate be powered instead of lifting it manually.
It's more convenient to have brighter headlights than it is to drive more slowly with dimmer headlights.

Did I miss anything?

As for these options all being grouped together, that's just fine. This package is about a 5% add-on to the price of the car, so there's not much reason to split it up.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Agree 100%!

I got keyless entry on my Leaf for the first time and would never want to revert.

OK, I don't mean to get pedantic, but ...

(Remote) Keyless entry just means you don't need to put the key in the door to unlock it.
Smart key means you don't have to do anything to unlock the door and have push-button or pedal start.
It seems that RKE is so common that people call smart key RKE.

I have 1-door smart key on my Prius II and it's nice, but I'd have readily skipped it to save money or swap it for a comfortable seat. (Not that it's particularly _un_comfortable). I can unlock and lock using a fob by feel. I think the only thing about it I'd really miss would be the ease of cracking open the windows after getting out of the car and remembering that it's going to be hot that day.

 

[AustinPowers]

Did you have to drive uphill, both ways, in the snow, too? (just kidding!)

This choice is mostly artistic, rather than practical.

You obviously have never driven a car with Xenon lights otherweise you wouldn't make such a remark.
Having to travel a lot at night through forresty areas or winding roads with no road lamps, which is basically anywhere outside of towns here, I have really come to appreciate the advantages of Xenon over halogen.

It has got nothing to do with artistic versus practical - it's a safety feature. And even though I do like to generalize (or so I've been told ;-)), it really is a fact that HID's are lighting roads better than halogen - by an order of magnitude!
Actually imho the Xenon lights are the only really essential thing the tech package offers. And like safety belts, airbags, ABS and ESP, they ought to be mandatory standard equipment on any car.

 

[bonnie]

I'm sure they're quite nice, but some of us grew up with flash lights duct taped to the side mirrors and managed with those! I'm sure I'll be glad to have the Xenon, but let's not get too carried away with over emphasising their importance. And I've lived in rural areas 90% of my life.

Did you have to drive uphill, both ways, in the snow, too? (just kidding!)

This choice is mostly artistic, rather than practical.

I currently live in a rural area (for those of you who have not, that means narrow windy roads with no street lights, very little traffic, lots of animals that can dart out in front of you). I upgraded to xenon lights earlier this year and now the distance and the width of my field of vision on low beams far exceeds what I had on high beams previously. The photos posted here are very realistic in representing the difference.

Over emphasizing the importance? Artistic, rather than practical? Absolutely not. It's a much safer drive home now. And while people may have made do with flashlights taped to side mirrors in the past, that's no reason not to have a safer, better alternative.

 

[AndyM]

You obviously have never driven a car with Xenon lights otherweise you wouldn't make such a remark.
Having to travel a lot at night through forresty areas or winding roads with no road lamps, which is basically anywhere outside of towns here, I have really come to appreciate the advantages of Xenon over halogen.

It has got nothing to do with artistic versus practical - it's a safety feature. And even though I do like to generalize (or so I've been told ;-)), it really is a fact that HID's are lighting roads better than halogen - by an order of magnitude!
Actually imho the Xenon lights are the only really essential thing the tech package offers. And like safety belts, airbags, ABS and ESP, they ought to be mandatory standard equipment on any car.

I stand corrected. It shows my experience is based on city and/well-lit driving mostly.
I am very glad the tech package will help school me, too.

 

[AustinPowers]

I stand corrected. It shows my experience is based on city and/well-lit driving mostly.
I am very glad the tech package will help school me, too.

And even better if they are implemented in the form of adaptive cornering lights with dynamic light, meaning they

a) adjust automatically between high- and low-beam, depending on oncoming traffic (actually the systems VW and other automakers offer don't just switch the high-beams on and off but continuously adjust the lighted area so you can leave high-beams on all the time, not sure Model S offers that?) like so:

(Sorry for the description in German but I could't find the equivalent image on the UK or US website of VW)*

b) light around the corner - old tech but fascinating when experiencing it live (I'm glad to have it in my car, extremely helpful on those winding roads through forrests around here)

Hopefully Model S will offer those two features with their Xenon lights in future (or better still with full LED lighting).


*It roughly translates as:

"... You can leave your high-beams on all the time, without blinding oncoming traffic. A camera based system continuously monitors oncoming traffic, road lamps etc. and permanently adjusts the lighted area accordingly".

 

[dflye]

The package should really be called a "Convenience Package":
It's more convenient to have 7 years of map updates instead of 2, and to have POIs stored locally, etc.

Circling back to the details of the onboard navigation vs google navigation, here's a few excerpts from conversing with Tesla that contradict what pretty much everyone (including myself) assumes about onboard navigation actually including POI data that doesn't require a google search:

Hi Dan,

I followed up with your suggestion and sent it to one of my colleagues. It looks like I had initially provided you with some outdated information.

Model S navigation will actually not include an on board point of interest database. Instead we will utilize Google search from the maps application on the touchscreen. So points of interest will all be web based, and the turn by turn directions will come from the Navigon system.

Sorry for the confusion, I hope this clears it up a bit.

To which I replied:

Thanks for the clarification on the navigation features for POI searching and turn by turn directions.

So this does bring up a new question on the specification of a destination for routing when in an area with no reception (i.e., unable to get a connection to google maps due to no cell signal)

Is it possible to manually enter in a destination address or LAT/LON, either in that scenario, or even when cell coverage exists? Since the implicit answer is that the turn-by-turn directions need detail down to the street level (but perhaps not the address number ranges for street segments) for routing purposes, if nothing else it could prompt for a street name in a city/state and then prompt for an optional cross street to narrow down the destination area.

I'm sure things will become MUCH clearer upon the release online of the PDF version of a comprehensive owner's manual or the delivery of my Model S, whichever comes first. ;-)

And the latest answer from Tesla (at which point I stopped pestering them, as there definitely seems to be a bit of confusion on the navigation implementation):

Hi Dan,

You will still be able to enter LAT/LON or street addresses even when in areas without data coverage. If you were to search something more generic such as “coffee” it would not be able to find nearby coffee shops without data connectivity. The 7 years of map updates will keep the vehicle up to date with latitude/longitude and street locations.

Tesla will continue to look at what our customers need and want in their vehicles, so I will log your POI desires in our feedback. Once the vehicles are in the hands of more customers and people and real world experience using the navigation systems it will be much easier to find the best areas of improvement for Model S software.

So, to recap: Current info from Tesla indicates that POI data is NOT part of the tech package navigation system, just the info needed for turn-by-turn routing.

 

[Todd Burch]

Can't figure out if I like this or not.

On the one hand, doing POI searches via the web means the data is much more complete and up-to-date. On the other hand--as you point out--without cell coverage your options are limited.

Although my initial instinct is that with the computing power and potential data storage capability aboard the Model S they should be able to provide something much more advanced, thinking about it further I think web based should mostly be OK.

If they REALLY want to push the technology, use some decent storage (64GB or so?) for a large database of onboard POIs that continually get updated via the web when the car is in its "home port" (garage). That way you have the best of both worlds.

 

[mnx]

Just thinking outloud here... I would think anytime you are looking for a POI you'd have no problem getting cell coverage. Out in the boonies there are no POI's to search for.

Can't figure out if I like this or not.

On the one hand, doing POI searches via the web means the data is much more complete and up-to-date. On the other hand--as you point out--without cell coverage your options are limited.

Although my initial instinct is that with the computing power and potential data storage capability aboard the Model S they should be able to provide something much more advanced, thinking about it further I think web based should mostly be OK.

If they REALLY want to push the technology, use some decent storage (64GB or so?) for a large database of onboard POIs that continually get updated via the web when the car is in its "home port" (garage). That way you have the best of both worlds.

 

[efusco]

Just thinking outloud here... I would think anytime you are looking for a POI you'd have no problem getting cell coverage. Out in the boonies there are no POI's to search for.

Not necessarily. We're not talking about barren desert, but rather locations with poor or spotty coverage. In the Ozarks of Missouri and Arkansas the cell towers are widely scattered and the hills and trees often block signals, and yet one needs to find restaurants and other locales in those area. There are plenty of "things" even though fairly remote from large cities.

 

[brianman]

Out in the boonies there are no POI's to search for.

So much for "take me to the location in North America that is farthest from Wal-Mart."

 

[Norbert]

And the latest answer from Tesla (at which point I stopped pestering them, as there definitely seems to be a bit of confusion on the navigation implementation):

I don't see why you thought Tesla's second response indicates confusion. Your question was about entering LAT/LON, and street addresses, for turn-by-turn navigation. The answer was yes, both with cell-coverage and without cell coverage, as in both cases turn-by-turn is handled by the on-board Navigon system, which does support LAT/LON and street addresses as destinations.

A question I'd have in that context is whether one can pre-enter, and store, a list of destinations, both for a specific trip for in-between destinations, as well as for frequent destinations one wants to go to from different starting points (home, work, favorite coffee shop / restaurant / etc). Might be called "favorites" or so.

 

[clea]

Not necessarily. We're not talking about barren desert, but rather locations with poor or spotty coverage. In the Ozarks of Missouri and Arkansas the cell towers are widely scattered and the hills and trees often block signals, and yet one needs to find restaurants and other locales in those area. There are plenty of "things" even though fairly remote from large cities.

+1 ... just got back from a week of being "off grid" in the Laurentians. I could've happily stayed disconnected the whole time but when you have to entertain two early teens sometimes the need to search for activities becomes imperative to maintain your sanity and the only way to do that is to drive to the closest town that has coverage.

 

[dflye]

I don't see why you thought Tesla's second response indicates confusion. Your question was about entering LAT/LON, and street addresses, for turn-by-turn navigation. The answer was yes, both with cell-coverage and without cell coverage, as in both cases turn-by-turn is handled by the on-board Navigon system, which does support LAT/LON and street addresses as destinations.

A question I'd have in that context is whether one can pre-enter, and store, a list of destinations, both for a specific trip for in-between destinations, as well as for frequent destinations one wants to go to from different starting points (home, work, favorite coffee shop / restaurant / etc). Might be called "favorites" or so.

Sorry, I guess I left out the first few rounds of the email exchange, where initially the Tesla rep indicated that the Navigon POI database was included with the tech package annual navigation refresh.

I left those earlier emails out, as my email exchange was originally asking about the ability to load custom POI data from an external source, something that pretty much any GPSr can handle these days, and also part of the Navigon spec it appears. Once it turned out that POI data was out of the picture, didn't see the need to add any more distraction to the topic here. :wink:

Here's a bit more of the last email exchange:

Sorry for belaboring the point, but an integrated navigation system was one of the components of the Model S I was most looking forwards to, so that I wouldn't need to bring my TomTom along for the ride, but unfortunately it sounds like the built in navigation system will be both limited in scope and be a black-box versus a system that allows for even the simplest of user additions (such as defining common frequently used destinations like "Home", "Grandma's House", "Beach House", etc)

While covering the expense of seven years of map updates is nice, I'd rather pay for that every few years (or whenever local area maps become out of date) and have a navigation system that works like a traditional auto or handheld GPSr (i.e., it doesn't require a connection to google or any other internet resource, and includes a built in, extensible and searchable POI database)

So the question on storing 'favorites' was basically not answered. I gave up on the email exchange at that point, didn't seem much point in further discussion with the Tesla rep until I have an actual Model S in my garage to play with.