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Technology for a BEV Whitestar

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Yeah, I agree, 3 models seems like the hot ticket if they can do it. And 70 miles would be perfectly wonderful for me...my current EV only does 30 (on a good day). I'd still have to keep my ICE beater around, but then what's new? I'd almost never drive it. I'll bet they go for 100 mile range minimum anyway...wasn't it GM whose studies said there was a big psychological change somewhere between 60-100 miles of range?

Then the question becomes how many kWhr it's going to take to move a sedan around for 70-100 miles. And of course such short range may force a chemistry change to something with higher cycle life. Of course this will be the case for the REEV as well. I guess it'll be interesting to see whether they use the same chemistry for both variants.
 
Yeah, I agree, 3 models seems like the hot ticket if they can do it. And 70 miles would be perfectly wonderful for me...my current EV only does 30 (on a good day). I'd still have to keep my ICE beater around, but then what's new? I'd almost never drive it. I'll bet they go for 100 mile range minimum anyway...wasn't it GM whose studies said there was a big psychological change somewhere between 60-100 miles of range?

Then the question becomes how many kWhr it's going to take to move a sedan around for 70-100 miles. And of course such short range may force a chemistry change to something with higher cycle life. Of course this will be the case for the REEV as well. I guess it'll be interesting to see whether they use the same chemistry for both variants.

For anything too far under 200 miles, a chemistry change is pretty much required because that's the "sweet spot" for commodity cells where 200miles/cycle * 500cycle = 100,000 miles, which most would agree is the minimum guarantee on an automotive battery. But it shouldn't be too hard to change the chemistry, it will just play into the cost equation more b/c you normally get less kWh/$ and energy density than you would using commodity cells. I also agree that Tesla will keep any BEV at 100 miles or above, b/c a main philosophy is that Tesla is supposed to make BEVs that are at or above the level of normal cars. Something like 40 miles is more fit for REEVs, and in a BEV it's around the levels of NEVs, which I think Tesla made clear they are not in the business of selling.
 
I also agree that Tesla will keep any BEV at 100 miles or above, b/c a main philosophy is that Tesla is supposed to make BEVs that are at or above the level of normal cars. Something like 40 miles is more fit for REEVs, and in a BEV it's around the levels of NEVs, which I think Tesla made clear they are not in the business of selling.

Absolutely! Producing a 40-mile range BEV WhiteStar will not earn Telsa much points or sales for that matter. Anything < 150 miles for a BEV in the $50k price range may get resounding cynicism. There are some who will purchase a BEV WhiteStar with < 100 miles; however that annual 10,000-customer market that Tesla will be targeting is going to show signs of fragmenting. Many will hold out for better batteries.
 
Considering that the NEW Think has a 180km range (90km in winter) and I haven't heard anyone saying anything negative about the range yet I dare say a 100 mile range Whitestar could sell nicely in Europe as the low end model. Which might be a significant difference between the European and US markets, the range "requirements". I'll agree that a 40mile range is down in NEV territory and thus is too little for such an expensive car the Whitestar wants to be.

Cobos
 
160-200 km would put the White Star into the 'charge once a week' range for many urban drivers. This would require about 200-250 kgs of batteries. The bigger problem would be getting power out to the street. This might be handled with powered parking meters and using a small onboard charger.
 
As well as lower range requirement there is a greater general acceptance of smaller, lighter cars in Europe than in the States. Will be interesting to see if Tesla's IPO attracts investment from this side of the Pond.
 
JB makes some comments about whitestar:

Our sedan project will use a single speed gearbox. In fact it is going to be VERY similar to this new gearbox re-using most of the internal components and designs. That is how we can accelerate the sedan project by leveraging this work.
No mention whether or not the motor will be liquid cooled as was mentioned before. He did make clear that the Roadster motor air cooling is unchanged for the most part.
 
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Elon:

So, wrote the spec for the sedan which is code-named WhiteStar and we're going a pure EV approach by the way. I don't think most people are completely aware of that. Martin was really pushing a hybrid approach, but we're not going to do a hybrid approach. We're going to go pure electric.

I think, the whole hybrid thing is a red herring.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/news-articles-events/1287-autobloggreen-q-elon-musk-part1.html
AutoblogGreen Q&A: Tesla Motors Chairman Elon Musk Pt. 3 - Lessons and WhiteStar hints - AutoblogGreen
 
Whitestar tidbits:

So, with the sedan, we're going to much more centralized. So that's one of the big lessons. We're going to a higher level of production – we're going from 2000 units a year to 20,000 units a year with the sedan. So that's a whole order of magnitude increase so that's different processes, different tooling equipment. It will be a stamped aluminum body instead of a carbon-fiber body.

There's some pretty big changes on the powertrain side that I don't want to... I'm going to make an announcement on that probably in a few months. There are really huge improvements on the powertrain side that are really fundamental to making a pure electric car work, not a hybrid. You have to address the range issue if you're going to have pure electric. So how are you going to address the range issue. There's a few things we're going to do to address the range issue.

....

So the battery pack... yes, there's some significant improvements to the battery pack. The Roadster's got really... Version 1 history of the technology; Version 2 is a whole step above that in many different ways, and then the rest of the powertrain, motor, transmission, power electronics – that's going to be much more tightly integrated package – much more cost-efficient. And so there are some really cool things that you'll see announced about WhiteStar . So you'll see some pretty cool announcements, happy to talk about it when we're ready to make that announcement. I can talk about some generalities that the WhiteStar is going to be something which is... it's going to be a good-looking car, but it's also going to be a very functional car. And I think functionality is extremely important.

...

We need to make it much more usable. We need a lot of trunk space; we have to put a lot of people in it. It's going to be very safe. I mean, safe enough that if you're a mom, you don't mind putting your kids in the car. People are pretty excited. I think this is going to be... it's that sort of thing where you want this to be a car that even if it wasn't an electric car, you'd say, "Wow, I really wish I had that as a sedan – whether it was electric or not, I don't care. It's just such a great car."

...

We're targeting $59,000 starting price for the car... It's not something everyone can afford, but it's a hell of a lot more affordable than a sports car and it's a hell of a lot more functional.
...
And then you know, we're working on some projects with some major car companies, you probably read some of the rumors and I think there's some exciting stuff that will come out of that as well.
 
I had this to say at ABG:
2. Lots of interesting Whitestar details in this segment. Pure BEV, Al body panels, base price of $59K... Safe enough for mom and kids these days tends to mean side impact air curtains. Sounds great.

I'll be really interested to see it when it comes out. Boggles my mind, though, how it's possible to have a car that's going to be much heavier than the Roadster and much cheaper, still have a reasonable range.
I guess the switch to stamped Al from carbon fiber saves quite a bit of money and they're working on other cost saving measures. Still not sure how they're gonna do it for that price and still have a reasonable range. As difficult the Roadster was to engineer, Whitestar is gonna be a tougher nut to crack.
 
It's great to hear Elon reveal some initial details about Whitestar. Aluminum body panels makes absolute sense even if we only take the price-point into consideration, but $59,000 USD seems very optimistic. I hope I don't get burned for this but I personally would still like to have a hybrid Whitestar as an available option. Who knows, maybe "battery pack" 2.0 (no more ESS?) will be quite substantial that an ICE wouldn't even be necessary.

My gut feeling after reading part 3 of the ABG interview however is that we will not be hearing anything about the sedan sometime in the second quarter as it was previously promised.
 
I had this to say at ABG:
I guess the switch to stamped Al from carbon fiber saves quite a bit of money and they're working on other cost saving measures. Still not sure how they're gonna do it for that price and still have a reasonable range. As difficult the Roadster was to engineer, Whitestar is gonna be a tougher nut to crack.

RAV4-EV drives a little bit more than 4 miles per kwh from battery. Well designed sedan with efficient drive train can make 5 miles per kwh (GM Volt). EV1 could drive about 6 miles per kwh.
 
It would be really interesting if there was some sort of 11th hour agreement between Tesla Motors and a larger auto manufacturer (I’ll assume Chrysler) where Tesla would use an existing Chrysler platform (LX?) and leverage their engineering team for drivetrain integration to create a premium EV version and Chrysler would keep the rights to the serial plug-in hybrid version as a direct competitor for the GM Volt. The Tesla Whitestar could be base $59k and the Chrysler version could be potentially $39k assuming the delta in battery costs (minus the generator and hardware/electronics required to make it work) and build materials would equal ~$20k.

I could see this being beneficial for both sides. Here are my thoughts:
- Tesla Motors has been drum beating Whitestar from the beginning (with good reason of course) and if they were single sourcing the design (like they did with the transmission for example) the falling out with Fisker could have very major impact for the business timeline and be unfavorable for investors.
- Designing their own platform from the ground up would be very costly and time consuming. The resources for this including crash testing and such in the necessary time frame may not have been -- or be in house at Tesla Motors.
- Chrysler would potentially benefit greatly at a technology level by leveraging Tesla’s resources such as the battery, PEM, transmission, motor and engineering team. Their product could have significantly less battery capacity, a small generator and be distinctively branded as a Chrysler vehicle.
- Tesla could also leverage the production capacity of Chrysler to produce the car in parallel to the Chrysler PHEV version, which would potentially save Tesla a huge investment in an assembly plant.

Of course this all a pipe dream, but I could see some amazing synergies between Tesla motors and a large auto manufacture. There is of course a lot of liability to the investors and the brand that Tesla has to keep in mind and I’m sure that this would look like TM selling out or being acquired.
Hope this makes sense to everyone. :)

PS. The Hyundai Genesis would be a much better ‘host’ platform, but this is even less likely. :)
 
Holy crap!

I didn't expect to see this thread back up again.

First of all,

THANK YOU ELON!

I appreciate that a BEV Whitestar is going to be incredibly difficult to achieve and that it may have to be a Euro-model first :biggrin:

Looking forward to the official announcement and seeing where the Daimler deal fits in.
 
It's great to get this information directly from Elon. Good points on Roadster, trunk space and lessons learned regarding production. Looking forward to the TM blog entries on battery pack 2.0 configuration.

Lots of cynics out there...
 
Lots of cynics out there...

Which is where Tesla was in July 06. (Where is Galactic Cannibal these days?)

I'm delighted that they have decided to push for a pure EV sedan. Really amazingly tough challenge.

They're certainly going to continue the founding fathers' tradition :)biggrin: - couldn't resist) of scaring the crap out of the auto industry.

Minor quibble - if Tesla succeeds with a BEV Whitestar, I can't help feeling that the mundane phrase, "battery pack" isn't going to cover it. But maybe he's a new man/product architect - I was half-expecting ESSS - Elon's Super Storage System :biggrin: