Technology for a BEV Whitestar

[malcolm]

Keeping some sort of generator OUT of the Whitestar is going to be a really tough challenge. Maybe too tough.

But let's be positive. What suitable high volume processes and applications are coming online which might help to provide solutions for a BEV Whitestar within the next 5 years?

Starting with....

http://mcgroup.co.uk/news/2007/10/31/1///Smart® Pioneers First Full PP Body Panels.html

and, going back a couple of years...

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/resources/fcvt_alm_fy05.html

 

[malcolm]

UK company recycles carbon fibre:-

http://www.milledcarbon.com/whoweare.html

http://www.milledcarbon.com/prodrange.html

 

[malcolm]

Survey from 2005 into Large-Scale Application of High Temperature-resistant Plastics in Motors and Gears

http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/p...cmCtx3&ctxixpLink=FcmCtx3&ctxixpLabel=FcmCtx4

 

[TEG]

They used to say "the future is plastics", but I think ceramics are perhaps still waiting to find more uses.

http://machinedesign.com/ContentItem/70397/NewRolesForCeramicParts.aspx

Brake rotors, turbo scrolls, the list goes on.

 

[TEG]

Media.Ford.com: New Ford hybrid electric car tops 70 MPG

(Very low CD. Very lightweight materials. Camera rearview mirrors. Variable ride height. etc.)

[ Keep in mind that it was announced in 1999... ]

 

[malcolm]

Ok, I know, I know.

At some point this thread ceases to be CPR and starts becoming necrophilia...

http://www.rmi.org/images/PDFs/Transportation/T02-10_DsnManuAdvComp.pdf

Report from 2002. The Revolution was developed by Hypercar Inc. At the time it was intended to run on a fuel cell, but the analysis suggested that the design would achieve "nearly 60% lighter weight with high structural performance and cost competitiveness at 50,000/y production volume."

 

[vfx]

According to this Ousted Tesla exec was behind gas-electric car idea | Green Tech blog - CNET News.com it was Martin's idea for the Whitestar as a serial hybrid.

As a fan of an all EV Sedan (they are talking about both) I would love to get Martin's thinking on this.

Is it a stop gap until batteries get enough range or an inevitable tech to combat the fears of those who are scared of being stranded in an EV?

 

[Cobos]

Since this is "official" information now maybe asking Martin on his blog if he can say something about it? Though looking at the friendly attitude toward the Volt, from Tesla, this might be the reason for it?

Cobos

PS: I did get a chuckle out of the "use discarded Lira for money" comment from the Cnet writer. I remember as a 12 year old on vacation in Italy paying 1 200 lira for a big ice cream cone

 

[Hunter]

I guess I just don't follow the premise of this thread. Why is it such a hard job to build Whitestar without a generator? The pure BEV is a lot simpler...seems to me like it's a lot harder to build it with an ICE. Anyway, Tesla has said the BEV would likely come out before the REEV...

Boy I sure am itching to see this Whitestar info that's supposed to be coming "soon."

 

[Kardax]

I guess I just don't follow the premise of this thread. Why is it such a hard job to build Whitestar without a generator? The pure BEV is a lot simpler...seems to me like it's a lot harder to build it with an ICE."

Building an electric sedan is easy. But that's not the goal.

The goal is to build an affordable electric sedan. That changes everything. High-capacity batteries are expensive, so in order to use fewer of them, you have to use lightweight materials and efficient aerodynamics while still keeping it visually appealing and useful to mainstream customers. Balancing all those together is what makes building an electric sedan that you can profitably sell incredibly difficult. It's never been done.

Using a generator adds complexity, but the materials costs go way down because you can use a battery pack with a fraction of the capacity. Fuel tanks are relatively cheap at any size.

-Ryan

 

[doug]

I guess I just don't follow the premise of this thread. Why is it such a hard job to build Whitestar without a generator? The pure BEV is a lot simpler...seems to me like it's a lot harder to build it with an ICE. Anyway, Tesla has said the BEV would likely come out before the REEV...

I don't think it's necessarily harder, but given the expense of the batteries and the increased weight of a 4 door sedan over the Roadster, it's probably difficult to get a good balance between range and cost.

 

[Hunter]

Kardax and doug, sure, I follow the expense and range problem. But it's a problem whose solution lies in parts of the vehicle that both models (EV and REEV) will share anyway. They are still designing the REEV to be as efficient as they can make it while keeping expenses down. So they have to do the hard parts of the EV even if they don't make one. So at that point, even if your goal is just to build an REEV, you don't lose anything by leaving the ICE parts out of some of them and putting in as many batteries as the customer will pay for. And since you get to do that without all the fancy ICE development, you might as well do it first while you get the other one ready.

That was the read of things I got from hearing that the BEV would come sooner, and that the intention was to release at least two models with wide price differences. I kind of figured the BEV would come first and cost $20k more, with the REEV being the more mass-market option once the ICE dev was done and the costs had crept down a bit more. I suppose time will tell...

 

[Cobos]

I'm hoping they will announce in reality 3 cars. A medium range BEV, a long range BEV and a "unlimited" range REEV. That way you can get a pretty short range "cheap" model and more expensive version more in line with their Roadster target of 200+ miles range. I'm pretty sure a 100miles range BEV would be me fine and I wouldn't be able to afford anything from Tesla with a longer range in the near future at least... That way the shorter range version could use some cheaper and heavier materials to cut costs perhaps.

Cobos

 

[doug]

Yeah, I think the plan is to come out with the BEV version first. Sorry if my last post repeated Kardax. I hadn't seen his when I left mine.

 

[doug]

I'm hoping they will announce in reality 3 cars. A medium range BEV, a long range BEV and a "unlimited" range REEV.

Actually, IIRC, before all this REEV talk, the original Whitestar plan was to have two different trim levels differentiated primarily on range. I'd also like it if they honored that original plan by offering 3 versions of the car.

That way the shorter range version could use some cheaper and heavier materials to cut costs perhaps.

I would guess to keep manufacturing simple, the majority of the materials would be the same between versions of the car. Most of the price difference would be from the size of the battery pack. It would be nice if they came up with a modular design, such that a car delivered in one version could be easily converted/upgraded in the future.

 

[vfx]

I too think the 3 version idea is a good one.

The inexpensive one would be a total stripped down version (like a Blue Star tease). It would sell to the hardcore green buyers and those who know that they realistically only need 40 or so miles a day.

Mercedes is doing it

 

[Cobos]

My ideal low-end Whitestar is not a stripped down version. It should be able to get most of the same "features" as the more expensive version, and hopefully a bit more range than 40 miles. 70 miles would be enough for me I beleive. Then mostly any driving I would realisticly do I would need to recharge at my destination but otherwise it would work fine. They are selling a luxury sedan after all, that's kind of the big selling point IMHO anyway.
Anyway I'm glad there are more people like me that want 3 versions of the Whitestar, then it's more likely Tesla will have thought of this as well.

Cobos

 

[Kardax]

I too think the 3 version idea is a good one.

The inexpensive one would be a total stripped down version (like a Blue Star tease). It would sell to the hardcore green buyers and those who know that they realistically only need 40 or so miles a day.

Mercedes is doing it

I can't see Tesla doing a 40-mile range car. Ever. For Tesla, it leaves practically no margin for profit, and for the customer, it leaves practically no margin for error, especially as the battery ages.

My advice for someone who can't afford a new 200-mile (or whatever) WhiteStar, simply wait a couple years and get a used version for half price, that still has 150+ miles of range.

-Ryan

 

[doug]

Someone with better internet research skills than I may be able to find it, but I think the proposed ranges for the two Whitestar trim levels were something like 150 and 250 miles. Again this was long before the Volt concept was unveiled and before Tesla started hinting at a REEV solution.

 

[vfx]

" I think the proposed ranges for the two Whitestar trim levels were something like 150 and 250 miles."

Well then 40 does seem a bit low. 75 (half of 150) seems like a good low end distance for the number 3 car.