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Patents are presumed valid.

35 U.S. Code § 282 - Presumption of validity; defenses
(a) In General.— A patent shall be presumed valid. Each claim of a patent (whether in independent, dependent, or multiple dependent form) shall be presumed valid independently of the validity of other claims; dependent or multiple dependent claims shall be presumed valid even though dependent upon an invalid claim.

The burden to prove otherwise is on the challenger.

35 U.S. Code § 282 - Presumption of validity; defenses
(a) . . . The burden of establishing invalidity of a patent or any claim thereof shall rest on the party asserting such invalidity.

Challenges to the validity of a patent must be plead, in court.

35 U.S. Code § 282 - Presumption of validity; defenses
(b) Defenses.— The following shall be defenses in any action involving the validity or infringement of a patent and shall be pleaded:

To date, no one has challenged Charles Flynn's permanent magnet motors (four of them) US Patent #6246561, June 12, 2001, for being invalid, in court. Therefore, it is valid.

There is no law that requires one to be a physicist to rely on that validity. There is no law that requires one to be a physicist to cite that patent or to proclaim it valid.

I proclaim that patent valid because the law does.

Dan
 
It is possible to patent things that will never work. And you are correct that nobody has proven that this device would not violate the laws of physics as we understand them. Nobody has challenged the patents in court. But having a legally valid patent is not the same as having a promising device.

Engineers have more options than they can count for how to power a car, and they have to cull through them judiciously. First, they throw out everything that violates the principles of physics that we understand. Then they throw out things that won't fit in the car, things that are too expensive, don't provide enough power, are too dangerous, or not reliable enough. They don't stop with just what exists, they'll start with something tried and true, or recently developed prototypes, and modify them to optimize whatever parameters they need for the task at hand.

Tesla just isn't in the business of creating new types of energy storage. AC-Induction motors have existed a long time, they just hadn't been put in cars in large scale before. Lithium Ion batteries are a bit newer, but have spent countless hours powering phones and laptops. Since then they've worked with battery manufacturers to improve on them slightly, and they've tweaked the design of the motor, but nothing on the car is really new.

For something to be ready for a mass produced car, it needs to be shown to work. Otherwise car companies would be spending all of their time proving that stuff doesn't work and no time actually building cars.
 
I proclaim that patent valid because the law does.

I have a patent in my name that is absolute crap and makes absolutely no sense in reality.

I went halfway through the patent procedure, and the lawyer filing it was an absolute nincompoop so I after several rounds I gave up trying to explain stuff to him. A couple of weeks later he threw a document in front of my noise, and I just signed it simply because I didn't want to deal with him anymore, and I got money from my company for having my name on the patent.

In no way is it anywhere close to what I designed or implemented nor anything that anybody else in the world can take and implement.

It still exists as a "valid" patent today.

The U.S. patent process is a bad joke.
 
I had a friend once, who was a real physicist, that insisted that, because he was a physicist he was an expert in the law. I didn’t have the heart to tell him just how truly delusional this supposition was. I highly recommend that, if you are a physicist, you don’t make the same foolish mistake my friend did. But, hey; you wouldn’t be the first physicist that made a complete fool of himself/herself in court, and you certainly won’t be the last one, either.

Like my law professor was fond of saying; there aren’t going to be any rocket scientists on the jury.

I direct the presumption that Charles Flynn’s US Patent #6246561, June 12, 2001, is valid against you and anyone else that chooses to challenge that patent for invalidity. The burden is on you to rebut that presumption but, as I previously proved, you can only do so in a US court of law.

Federal Rules of Evidence, Rule 301. Presumptions in Civil Actions Generally
In a civil case, unless a federal statute or these rules provide otherwise, the party against whom a presumption is directed has the burden of producing evidence to rebut the presumption.

Charles Flynn’s US Patent #6246561, June 12, 2001, because it is searchable and downloadable online with the USPTO, it is self authenticated. As such, that patent does not require any additional or outside (extrinsic) evidence of authenticity in order for it to be admitted into evidence or for the presumption of validity to be asserted.

Federal Rules of Evidence, Rule 902. Evidence That is Self-AuthenticatingThe following items of evidence are self-authenticating; they require no extrinsic evidence of authenticity in order to be admitted:
. . . .
(10) Presumptions Under a Federal Statute. A signature, document, or anything else that a federal statute declares to be presumptively or prima facie genuine or authentic.
Further;
Federal Rules of Evidence, Rule 901. Authenticating or Indentifying Evidence
(a) In General. To satisfy the requirement of authenticating or identifying an item of evidence, the proponent must produce evidence sufficient to support a finding that the item is what the proponent claims it is.
(b) Examples. The following are examples only — not a complete list — of evidence that satisfies the requirement:
. . . .
(7) Evidence About Public Records. Evidence that:
(A) a document was recorded or filed in a public office as authorized by law; or
(B) a purported public record or statement is from the office where items of this kind are kept.

If you or anyone else wished (past tense) to object to Charles Flynn’s US Patent #6246561, June 12, 2001, for being invalid, you had plenty of lawful opportunities to do so. Because you slept on your rights to so object, you can only object, challenge Charles Flynn’s US Patent #6246561, June 12, 2001, for being invalid, now, by doing so in a US court of law, as I previously proved, here.

USPTOTrademark Process
Initial Steps
STEP 7:
File the application online through the Trademark Electronic Application System. View trademark fee informatio. REMINDERS:. . . (2) All information you submit to the USPTO at any point in the application and/or registration process will become public record, including your name, phone number, e-mail address, and street address.
STEP 11: USPTO Publishes Mark
If the examining attorney raises no objections to registration, or if the applicant overcomes all objections, the examining attorney will approve the mark for publication in the Official Gazette, a weekly publication of the USPTO. The USPTO will send a notice of publication to the applicant stating the date of publication. After the mark is published in the Official Gazette, any party who believes it may be damaged by registration of the mark has thirty (30) days from the publication date to file either an opposition to registration or a request to extend the time to oppose. An opposition is similar to a proceeding in a federal court, but is held before the TTAB. If no opposition is filed or if the opposition is unsuccessful, the application enters the next stage of the registration process.
STEP 13: Notice of Allowance Issues for Marks Based on an Intent-to-Use the Mark
If the mark is published based upon the applicant's bona fide intention to use the mark in commerce and no party files either an opposition or request to extend the time to oppose, the USPTO will issue a notice of allowance about eight (8) weeks after the date the mark was published. The applicant then has six (6) months from the date of the notice of allowance to either: (1) Use the mark in commerce and submit a statement of use (SOU); or (2) Request a six-month extension of time to file a statement of use (extension request).
A notice of allowance is a written notification from the USPTO that a specific mark has survived the opposition period following publication in the Official Gazette, and has consequently been allowed; it does not mean that the mark has registered yet. Receiving a notice of allowance is another step on the way to registration. Notices of allowance are only issued for applications that have been filed based on an intent-to-use a mark in commerce under Trademark Act Section 1(b).
Until you do so challenge Charles Flynn’s US Patent #6246561, June 12, 2001, in a US court of law, challenging it’s validity, and prevail on that challenge, Charles Flynn’s US Patent #6246561, June 12, 2001, will be deemed valid, for all intents and purposes. No other additional evidence need be submitted to support that legal conclusion of validity.

Again, I proclaim Charles Flynn’s US Patent #6246561, June 12, 2001, of his permanent magnet motors (four of them) legally valid, for all intents and purposes. See, top of page 19. The burden is on you or anyone else to prove otherwise and, you may only do so (credibly) in a US court of law. Any challenge to Charles Flynn’s US Patent #6246561, June 12, 2001, for invalidity, outside of a US court of law, such as the ones you have made here, are legally deemed incredible and irrelevant. No response to such incredible and irrelevant challenges is required. In law, they are garbage (to be ignored) and that is how I am treating them.

I gladly await your proper legal challenge, in a US court of law, to the validity of Charles Flynn’s US Patent #6246561, June 12, 2001. Until then, no defense to Charles Flynn’s US Patent #6246561, June 12, 2001, is required. Nor, shall one be given.

Dan

- - - Updated - - -

Merriam-Webster’s definition of "motor": a machine that produces motion or power for doing work
1: one that imparts motion; specifically: PRIME MOVER
2: any of various power units that develop energy or impart motion

This is a judicially noticeable definition of the word "motor". Because this definition is common knowledge, I will ask the court to take judicial notice it. As such, it is a fact that is indisputable. Indisputable facts are not for the jury to decide.

Dan
 
No one is saying his patent isn't valid. Some are presuming it shouldn't have been approved, but not that in its current state it isn't valid. No one cares if the patents are valid or not. Because what appears to be patented will never work.

What everyone here is saying is it wont work. That on a surface view, and your it breaks a fundamental natural law. And because of this who cares if there is one, or four, patents out there. They will never amount to anything but some idle work done by the USPTO.


wouldn't require recharging at all

This statement, coupled with some general size and mass constraints, would mean this thing would have to convert a significant (on an energy scale, not mass scale) amount of mass into energy. Which would mean it would have to be nuclear. And well it isn't. So it won't ever work.

The USPTO is fallible. The laws of Thermodynamics haven't been shown to be fallible as of yet.
 
Permanent Magnet Generator - EV?

Are you a lawyer Dan? Then stick to lawyering.

This is a forum for electric cars and technology. If you have nothing more to say about the technology you are promoting apart from arguing the legality of the patent (moot issue since noone had challenged the validity of the patent) then may I suggest you find another forum?
 
Are you a lawyer Dan? Then stick to lawyering.

This is a forum for electric cars and technology. If you have nothing more to say about the technology you are promoting apart from arguing the legality of the patent (moot issue since noone had challenged the validity of the patent) then may I suggest you find another forum?

He's already running the same thread over on MyNissanLeaf forum. I wouldn't be surprised to find the same thread on all other EV forums.
 
No one is saying his patent isn't valid. Some are presuming it shouldn't have been approved, but not that in its current state it isn't valid. No one cares if the patents are valid or not. Because what appears to be patented will never work.
...
The USPTO is fallible. The laws of Thermodynamics haven't been shown to be fallible as of yet.

The OP seems to be missing the fundamental link between science and engineering.

Here is another great example of a valid patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US8058638

It's a Quantum Mechanical computer, patented by Microsoft. It's a fine patent. It's perfectly valid. It's active. But it can't be made to work.

There is no way to build the device that the Microsoft patent describe. The science behind this is yet to be discovered - if that. But if one day the science happens to fall in place, the engineering is already designed, which is why the patent exists. Microsoft can only hope that a Qubit ends up working the way that they think it works. It may not - if it doesn't, they've lost a few thousand on the patent - no big deal. If it does - they'll roll in the money. So it's a risk they're taking. In no way is anybody (including Microsoft) under the delusion that Microsoft has the ability to build a Quantum Computer today, or can tell anybody else how to build one.

The same thing applies to the PMG patent. If anybody ever discovers a way to switch the polarity of a permanent magnet (without expending more energy doing that than the magnet will provide after), the patent gets into play and Charles can make money of it (the rotary motion claims will be a very useful application of this). However, nobody ever has.

At least in the Quantum Mechanical case there is evidence on the small scale that perhaps one day it might be possible. There has never been any glimmer of evidence in the permanent magnet case - the laws of thermodynamics are alive and well, even in California.
 
@TeleforceONE - So your logic is that if the patent office approved the patent, it must be viable? With proof that if no one opposed it, it must be true. Have you considered the possibility no one cared enough to spend the time and energy to oppose it?

Nonetheless, I think most folks here are open-minded about different viable ideas. So far no one here has been able to understand exactly what this patent accomplishes, and some of the claims seem questionable in the context of basic physics and science. That's why we're skeptical. Just like all the "battery breakthroughs" and patents around those, call Tesla when there's a lab sample or prototype you want to send, otherwise it's a waste of precious engineering time.
 
Ok. This is getting a little odd.
So you have no scientific background but love this PMG device by Flynn but don't want to contact him. Why wouldn't Flynn submit this world changing idea to everyone himself when it is ready since you have no connection with him, the device, or the technology.
 
So far no one here has been able to understand exactly what this patent accomplishes, and some of the claims seem questionable in the context of basic physics and science.

I understand the patent pretty well. It pretty much boils down to 2 things:

1) You can alter the flux of a permanent magnet and steer it into a specific direction, by using an electromagnet.

It's actually pretty simple - Imagine 2 magnets and place them together with the same poles touching (let's say South Pole). As you may know, if you hold one down, the other one will flip over, and then you have a N-S combo, which will attract each other. After that single flip, all motion stops. This is a pretty standard experiment for every 5-year old.

Now instead imagine you can alter the poles of the magnet you're holding down (in this case, by using an electromagnet). It will mean the other one will continue to flip over from North to Side each time you change the polarity of the other magnet. Attach the flipper to an axis, and you have a motor. Attach the motor to an alternator and you have a source of energy. Use some of the energy of the generator to power the electromagnet that keeps flipping the permanent magnet around, and the rest of the power for your Model S.

What makes this not work is that it takes (much) more energy to flip the poles of a permanent magnet around than you'll ever get out of it again it.


2) The second part of the patent is that, once can accomplish #1, here is how you can build motors, generators etc. based on that.


#1 is a unicorn.
#2 is a method that shows how best to use a unicorn in order to plough a field. I'm sure it's the best usage of unicorns ever imagined in the world. But just one slight problem... Amazon is all out of unicorns.
 
It's actually pretty simple - Imagine 2 magnets and place them together with the same poles touching (let's say South Pole). As you may know, if you hold one down, the other one will flip over, and then you have a N-S combo, which will attract each other. After that single flip, all motion stops. This is a pretty standard experiment for every 5-year old.

Now instead imagine you can alter the poles of the magnet you're holding down (in this case, by using an electromagnet). It will mean the other one will continue to flip over from North to Side each time you change the polarity of the other magnet. Attach the flipper to an axis, and you have a motor. Attach the motor to an alternator and you have a source of energy. Use some of the energy of the generator to power the electromagnet that keeps flipping the permanent magnet around, and the rest of the power for your Model S.

What makes this not work is that it takes (much) more energy to flip the poles of a permanent magnet around than you'll ever get out of it again it.
So he's invented a different (and probably much less efficient) MOTOR, not a power generator.
 
What is a PMG? This whole thread is very confusing. Did it it get moved from another thread because I feel that there's some context missing.
"permanent magnet generator" it's a fancy name for a new perpetual motion machine. The OP of this thread wasn't getting his hoped for enthusiasm over it in another thread and therefore created this one. The two threads should probably be merged if a moderator is handy...