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TEPCO/CHAdeMO Level III "quick" charging station/connector

Discussion in 'Supercharging & Charging Infrastructure' started by doug, Nov 16, 2009.

  1. Dave EV

    Dave EV Active Member

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    The main issue here with charging stations is competition.

    A utility would be able to charge much lower rates to charge than a 3rd party who has to pay retail rates for demand and electricity charges.

    For QC stations - the killer cost is demand charges. Demand charges can run up to $25 / kW during peak times. So a single QC during peak hours would cost the QC owner $1250 / month.

    But demand charges are what the utility makes money off of - they are required to directly pass energy costs to the consumer without markup. SDG&E actual cost for a single 50 kW peak-charge is much lower than $1250 - so they would have an inherent advantage over anyone else trying to sell QC services.
     
  2. sp4rk

    sp4rk Banned

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    Ok, I am so confused about this.

    Oak Brook, IL told me that there would be an adapter for level 2 charging that would make my (one day) Model S ... compatible with the Type 2 charging station I have put in my home garage for my (soon to be delivered) Leaf.

    But level 3.

    Am I now understanding that the Model S will not be compatible with CHAdeMO?

    My local Whole Foods has a Level 3 charger.

    whole_foods_chademo.jpg
     
  3. sp4rk

    sp4rk Banned

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    Can't wait to test them all ... June I am told.

    Clock's ticking.

    Then wait for Model S, P85?? ugh. :)
     
  4. VolkerP

    VolkerP EU Model S P-37

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    Yes. Model S will not be capable to charge from CHAdeMO. An adapter for CHAdeMO is in discussion but nothing official here.
    Model S with the 85kWh pack will support Tesla's proprietary DC quick charging solution called "supercharging" which goes up to 90kW. For the Model S with 60kWh pack it is an option (at extra cost), and Model S with 40kWh is excluded from DC quick charging. Tesla announced to build a U.S. nation wide network of super charging QC stations but it is unclear at which rate they plan progress or if they are aware of the obstacles they must overcome to fulfill and deliver.
     
  5. sp4rk

    sp4rk Banned

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    Wow.

    Given the CHAdeMo "standard", and their already rate of deployment, is this not a giant step in the wrong direction for Tesla?

    At Oak Brook they quickly showed me (pointed at their wall) how you can plug the Model S into any "oven type" of 30amp 220V wall socket.

    And they're discussing an incredibly important aspect of their reason d'etre just 3 months before delivery?

    I've still not figured out what this adaptor is (going to be) for Level 2. And if they're going to charge extra for it.

    It will be an interesting 16 (?) months of weaning in the Leaf and then comparing an apple to an orange!
     
  6. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    CHAdeMO is not a U.S. or European standard. The U.S. standards body, SAE, has been dragging its feet in adopting a DC standard -- which is almost sure to be inconsistent with CHAdeMO. Early guidance suggests, though, that Tesla has engineered the Model S to work with the SAE-DC standard.

    Nature abhors a vacuum, however, and so do markets, so in the absence of an SAE standard, CHAdeMO is becoming a default standard for DC charging. Tesla needs to be proactive and develop support for CHAdeMO charging, just as it has (finally) recognized that it needs to support 3-phase charging in Europe.
     
  7. sp4rk

    sp4rk Banned

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    Agreed! With them (CHAdeMO) being deployed as they are (not as fast as 2), Tesla needs to embrace it.
     
  8. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    There's talk of rolling out CHAdeMO here. If the charge stations are present, then I'm sure going to want to use them!
     
  9. DarkStar

    DarkStar Member

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    Yep, and looking at the history of J1772 they are at least a couple of years away from ratifying the first version of the standard and about 10 years away from adoption. CHAdeMO or bust!
     
  10. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    A J1772 adapter is included. The "Options and Pricing", "Specs", and "Facts" pages all say so.

    Both CHAdeMO and especially the currently proposed SAE standard have needlessly awkward large plugs. Also CHAdeMO is in practice (though not in theory) limited to 50 kW, Tesla's (and SAE, which is even larger) support 90 kW. I'm assuming that Tesla simply doesn't want to encourage these plugs by saying they "support" them. But they will eventually have adapters if any of them become (unfortunately) the real-world standard. Tesla said they will follow the market if it goes with one of these. It's just that they really are nothing compared to Tesla's connector, so I hope that SAE will come around to using Tesla's connector even if the chances are small. In any case, I personally support Tesla to try establish their connector as the de-facto US standard, as it is so much better. SAE participants seem far from actually implementing cars using DC. CHAdeMO with mostly 50 kW is useful for extending the range of Leafs (turning its 73 mile range into a 110 mile range, and on rare occasions more than that), but not really for supporting longer trips for EVs like the Model S (which is the only reason Model S needs DC). So it seems Tesla will be without real competition for a long time. Why officially "support" standards that don't do the job well, when they have something much better, that saves cost, likely, and is much easier to use (aside from being "elegant" which some pretend is the only advantage). Plus you don't feel like you need to put on your construction worker gloves.
     
  11. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    I disagree with this. Consider a 85kWh Model S, traveling at 65mph. It will travel at that speed for approx. 4 hours (260 miles) before needing a charge. A 1 hour CHAdeMO 50kW charge will yield another 2,5 hours or so. That is 7,5 hours total and 423 miles traveled.

    After 4 hours of straight driving I am in need of food and rest. 1 hour is a perfect timeframe for enjoying a nice dinner at a restaurant. And 6,5 hours is just about as much driving I can take in one day. Even so, a 1:20 stop instead will yield 3,5 hours of additional driving instead of 2,5 hours.

    Now, if the charger is located at a rest stop with nothing but a toilet I do agree. But then even 90kW is way too slow ;)
     
  12. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #293 stopcrazypp, May 3, 2012
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
    Of course 50kW is better than nothing (or the 20kW level 2 alternative). But it's definitely not good enough for the goal of long distance travel (esp. in the US).

    Keep in mind, a 30 minute charge in the leaf gives 80% of the range, which is 80% of 73 miles = 58.4. So an hour gives about 120 miles (it'll be less for the Model S since it'll be less efficient). About half the range of the 85kWh Model S in an hour is too slow (which is why Tesla's charger is 90kW). I think in general about 80% the range or faster in an hour is something to aim for.
     
  13. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    This is getting OT, but that's the competing standard to CHAdeMO that Tesla is very, very likely to support via adapter (since Tesla has worked with SAE on that standard, and continues to do so as far as I know). In fact you can think of Tesla's connector as a "mini" version of it (it's almost exactly the same, except Tesla's version doesn't have the two extra DC power pins but instead integrates both the AC and DC power pins).
     
  14. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Perhaps Tesla is somewhat quiet / non-committal about CHAdeMO support because one needs to be if they want to be in good graces with the SAE?
     
  15. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    Tesla has been contributing to J1772 in terms of making it usable with the HPC (70A), but in relation to the SAE DC combo plug, I think they are only following from the distance (and not listed among the companies in the comittee), to make sure they are electrically compatible, to facilitate an adapter. Not sure about supporting all those "smart" network protocols on top of it.

    Regarding CHAdeMO, we heard reports that they are working on an adapter without it having been decided whether it will become an actual product.

    The last we heard, Tesla isn't fond of any of these (and neither am I, having seen how small and simple the Tesla connector is, while supporting at least 90 kW). So that's why I think they wouldn't officially announce support of any specific connector, CHAdeMO or SAE, other than saying they are ready to go where the market goes. Which is hopefully with the Tesla connector. We may hear more about these questions when the Supercharger announcement comes, or soon after.
     
  16. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    They aren't part of this "CCS" committee (which includes support for the IEC version of the plug), but I'm pretty sure they are still part of the Hybrid J1772 committee, which means they can listen into and probably make comments about the DC portion (just like they did for the AC only version).
    http://www.sae.org/servlets/works/committeeHome.do?comtID=TEVHYB3

    I don't think there was a quote about them working on an adapter, just that they can produce one if necessary:
    Too early to say right now if Tesla will ever make a CHAdeMO adapter. It seems the CCS/J1772-DC plug is on track to be ready by summer (since they are likely showing a working version at EVS26). CHAdeMO will have about a year's headstart in the US since chargers are already being deployed. It'll have a bigger headstart and better chance in Europe if the IEC foot dragging continues.

    I think SAE had a discussion about if they were going to adopt CHAdeMO for DC, but decided against it (although they are working with IEC to harmonize with their standard). J1772 and the IEC 62196 is similar and electrically compatible (except for 3-phase support). CHAdeMO is too different from the two (no support for level 2, uses a can bus and has another analog control component).
     
  17. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    They said they are following what SAE does in that regard, but I haven't seen them (a year ago, or so) on the list of those companies directly involved in producing the DC standard. None of the comments they made about SAE-DC-combo indicated that they were involved in making proposals or anything, but I don't know more than that.

    Someone reported that a Tesla engineer was working on a CHAdeMO adapter, without certainty that it would become a product. That was at the October 2011 event, or shortly after.


    Yes, I think they made an announcement, or informal statement, that they decided against it.

    That is also my understanding. While SAE is different from the intended european standard (no 3-phase and also no semi-fast DC without extra DC pins), they are otherwise similar in regard to DC. The plug is different, but about the same size. From photos, the surface of the plug is almost twice as high as J1772, and the handle is much larger also in length and general clumsy-looking-ness. Maybe not quite as awkward as a gasoline filler, but compared to a Tesla connector.....
     
  18. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    A Model S would get more kWh in 30 minutes from a CHAdeMO charger than a Leaf. You'll never get 50kW in a Leaf because of the low battery voltage (360V) and the 125A max of the chargers. 370V*125A is about the max you could hope for, or 46kW. But it will start to ramp down pretty fast, at somewhere between 50% and 60% SOC. At 80% you're down to 20kW or so.

    A 85kWh Model S with it's big battery and higher voltage (450V?) should be able to take the full 50kW for an hour or so at least. (50/85)*300=176 ideal miles from a hour of charging. So at 55mph you get at least three hours of driving from every hour of charging. The 90kW charger will not cut this time to (50/90)*60=33 minutes as the battery probably can't sustain 90kW at higher SOC percentages. My guess is you can do the same 50kWh in 40minutes with the supercharger, cutting the 1 hour charge by 33%. Significant yes, but not that a big deal IMHO.

    With a 60kWh Model S the difference will be even smaller.
     
  19. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    Reminder this is not a Model S thread nor an SAE thread.
     

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